Goodenough Springs Exploration Project - Notice of Complaint

[txdivergrl]

M G. you might want to speak with your buddies as they again are spreading false information. Isn't that what has started this whole thread anyway? I have first hand knowledge of certain GSEP members saying GES could not be dove in drysuits due to flow placing too much drag on the diver resulting in possible CO2 hits. Of course your pictures are taken within the first few hundred feet of the system so this may not be an issue for you. And what about the hot water heaters they use on the colder deco stops. Surely you guys do not pump that into drysuits! Is the whole point of all this BS not about accurate information? People jump to conclusions and this crap happens everytime. It only takes one member to post an inaccurate statement and the punches begin. I think we all owe it to each other to post carefully and be considerate of the consequences of our actions. As for Chuck, realign your sources. Steve why worry about what others say on a board you claim to have a bad reputation? And Alan, if you know the information to be inaccurate and you even mention it, you have to know it will be taken many ways. So why mention. I see Steve's point and seeing how it is the second time you have done this, maybe an apology is in store??? But in your defense, he should not have been so aggressive in his post. However, if it was 528', 550' or 600', you have to know he is aggressive.

All I can say is the bigger story here is.....both these guys have made dives beyond the imagination of most readers on this board. 500' is a big dive on CCR not to mention OC. My hats off to both men for their dedication and achievments in the advancment of scuba, cave diving and technical diving. Without them we would be lessor of scuba divers. Wonder what would happen if they really did come toghther and worked to push GES?

 

[M G]

txdivergrl, there is no false information here. By all appearances this is either due to a lack of understanding on your part or a weak attempt to discredit our project. I can see how someone in a casual conversation and/or certain context would state that you "can't" dive Goodenough dry, without intending that to be taken literally in all situations. Having made countless dives over a number of years both wet and dry in Goodenough (in all areas of the cave), I can say with confidence that each has their application for individuals who understand the limitations of each and dives accordingly. I understand you are concerned about false information. In this case, I have offered my statements based on my personal experience. On the other hand, you have offered hearsay. For all we know, what you claim as false information in this case may be due to a lack of understanding on your part, as opposed to an error on the speaker's part.

 

[txdivergrl]

I'm sorry I guess my understanding of Chuck's email about the hydrolabs and yours differ. he mentions getting the labs changed out due to battery life and this would be the last chance of changing them before the season ends. After reading all the information posted and listneing to all the rants, I just continue to see information be misunderstood. First Chuck with his 3 different planned depths theory and now someone says dive operations continue year round. it seems to me Mr. Noe and Mr. Cushman like to place vague statements out there and leave the world to guess. But then again I only see Mr. Noe public complaining about derogatory statements here. While the answer to the complaint has none.

Since I have witnessed first hand the work of GSEP, I would never disrespect their work or abilities. I just simply cannot agree with the way the team has handled the issue at hand. (even though the real issue seems to be vague). The mere determination of the person who breeched the restriction deserves respect in my book. Then the fact people have dove to the depths mention is another deserving achievment in its own.

All I can say is why can't folks who can pull these types of performances act like men instead of infantile ego crazed babies? I know they all are capable of better statements and certainly better understanding of each others abilities!

 

[dsatrick]

I looked at the link and I would agree that you have dove GES in a dry suit but my question is have you been thru the restriction in a dry suit because based on the pic's in the link I find it hard to believe that those divers went thru the restriction with double's it's my understanding that it require SM please correct me if I'm wrong about it requiring SM to go thru the restriction

 

[Texas Torpedo]

K-Valve obviously lacks credibility.

Welcome back to SB after.. How long? Feb 2006? (last activity - post) I guess since Chuck pulled his hit & run, followed by his statement that he wouldn't be responding to any rebuttals, a number of you feel it necessary to chime in for him. I don't really have a dog in this fight other than an interest in caving and the facts. I've never met you, K-Valve, or anyone else who dared dive Goodenough recently in person (as far as I know), but IMO it is YOU and a growing number of GSEP members who are posting that lack "credibility" based upon the public complaint, rash decisions (yanking of lines, etc, from location), and most importantly the ignorant posts and comments relating to this group's certs and abilities.

While it is true that GSEP scales down operations when the lake water cools, we have conducted many dives during the winter and we certainly do not limit ourselves to wet suits. Our experience diving Goodenough has led us to the conclusion that diving in the winter should generally be avoided when possible and that any dives requiring "longer" decompression should be conducted during the summer. To plan something requiring longer decompression in November is indicative of either ignorance or poor judgement. This is the case at Goodenough for reasons that I will not elaborate on in detail. This whole situation really has us reconsidering how freely we share information with others.

As a relatively new cave diver (actually, only intro to cave cert'd thus far) I am interested to know why it is ignorant or lacking in sound judgment to plan a dive requiring longer deco in November here in the State of Texas, especially if one is wearing a dry suit, which the majority of people I've seen doing long decos in cold water use? Does Goodenough mysteriously reverse flow to an extreme where divers would have to hold on for dear life for extended periods of time or get sucked in, never to be seen again? (sarcasm)

Yet again we have a member of the GSEP team calling people ignorant (etc) and then following up with: "This is the case at Goodenough for reasons that I will not elaborate on in detail."

 

[k-valve]

K-Valve obviously lacks credibility. While it is true that GSEP scales down operations when the lake water cools, we have conducted many dives during the winter and we certainly do not limit ourselves to wet suits. Our experience diving Goodenough has led us to the conclusion that diving in the winter should generally be avoided when possible and that any dives requiring "longer" decompression should be conducted during the summer. To plan something requiring longer decompression in November is indicative of either ignorance or poor judgement. This is the case at Goodenough for reasons that I will not elaborate on in detail. This whole situation really has us reconsidering how freely we share information with others.

I don't want to make hollow accusations about untrue statements as K-Valve did regarding Chuck, so I offer the link below as photographic evidence of dry suit use by GSEP. John Kelly is clearly diving dry and I don't own a black wet suit.

Goodenough Springs Exploration Project - Photo Gallery - May 2005/Mike Gault in the Well with John Kelly looking on

How is that I lack credibility? Because you say so? Because your own Director of Dive Ops said in an email that the 14th would be their last dive of the year and that they normally don't dive that late anyway? Please. Get your facts straight. You can go on defending your team's indefensible actions or be a man and admit what y'all did was flat out wrong.

All you had to do was act like adults and tell Colin and Steve you didn't want them to push the cave and that you would be removing the line. That would have been fine with everyone. No one expects to take advantage of your hard work or equipment if you are not offering it freely. No one knew how possessive of this public system you all would be though.

Instead, GSEP handled in a cowardly, childish way. You removed the lines without telling C & S...all the while making them think all was well. Effectively, you said, "I don't like this game now, so I'm taking my toys and going home!" It cost those two guys thousands of dollars and lots of man hours and that is wrong no matter how you try to spin it. That is where everyone takes issue. Nobody gives a flip about your lines. All you had to do was say you were pulling them.

Truthfully, you still didn't keep us out of the cave. A line was set on the lip of the restriction without your lines, and two of us got through the restriction without any line to assist us through at all...and we were in drysuits. No CO2 hit either, cowboy. I know y'all think you are the only ones with the skill and expertise to safely dive that cave, but I have news for you. You're not.

So, keep it up. Keep defending yourselves. You behaved badly through your initial actions and you continue to prove your childish tendencies by continuing to try to defend your poor judgement.

 

[M G]

I don't believe I said that diving operations continue year round, but my posts remain unedited, so I'm sure someone will be quick to correct me if I'm mistaken.

These are not cases of people missunderstanding. These are cases of people trying too hard to find fault where it does not exist. We have seen this before in discussions pertaining to other exploration projects. As soon as a project comes into public view and particular controversy, everyone who has tangentially passed by the project at some point becomes a cyber expert. For some reason, the more disingenuous "experts" seem to side against GSEP in this case.

Please don't perpetuate the depth obsession. As a member of the 2 man team that tied in the line on the previous "record" of nearly 400' and someone who has been involved with the project since the beginning, I can assure you that the depth "accomplishments" pale in comparison to other GSEP achievements. I am glad someone (you) has finally touched on what will probably prove to be the greatest achievement in this cave in our life times - the initial passage of the Laird Restriction.

I'm sorry I guess my understanding of Chuck's email about the hydrolabs and yours differ. he mentions getting the labs changed out due to battery life and this would be the last chance of changing them before the season ends. After reading all the information posted and listneing to all the rants, I just continue to see information be misunderstood. First Chuck with his 3 different planned depths theory and now someone says dive operations continue year round. it seems to me Mr. Noe and Mr. Cushman like to place vague statements out there and leave the world to guess. But then again I only see Mr. Noe public complaining about derogatory statements here. While the answer to the complaint has none.

Since I have witnessed first hand the work of GSEP, I would never disrespect their work or abilities. I just simply cannot agree with the way the team has handled the issue at hand. (even though the real issue seems to be vague). The mere determination of the person who breeched the restriction deserves respect in my book. Then the fact people have dove to the depths mention is another deserving achievment in its own.

All I can say is why can't folks who can pull these types of performances act like men instead of infantile ego crazed babies? I know they all are capable of better statements and certainly better understanding of each others abilities!

 

[txdivergrl]

I would like to add to K-valve, Texas Torpedo and dsatrick....I think the real test of knowledge is a simple matter of a simple question. So to all the GSEP team members, Board of Directors and Esp. Chuck Noe, answer me the following:

Chuck, you stated in a prior post on cave diver forum back in 2008.... "Potential divers should note that this cave system requires special techniques and qualifications beyond being Full-Cave certified by a recognized training agency. Due to the extreme normal depths of the system, divers entering into the cave without the use of Trimix breathing mixtures are in violation of their certification parameters. Additionally, we do not believe that Full-Cave and Trimix certifications alone qualify divers to dive in the extreme environment they may encounter. It is not the responsibility of the GSEP to monitor nor police divers at the site, but we fully support safe diving practices as outlined by the NSS-CDS and the NACD."

Then a member questioned the "beyond cave and trimix training" in which you replied..."I cannot categorically state that there is ANY specific certification that prepares one for diving in extreme environments. But it should be obvious that diving in a cave where the entrance is at 160 ffw+ would be foolhardy without full-cave and mix training, certification, and experience as a bare minimum.

There are additional hazards including but not limited to extremely high flow (often in excess of 250 fpm in the Fire Hydrant Tunnel) and unstable gravel restrictions. I have personally witnessed passable openings which have closed in the course of a dive.

While the initial portions of the system aren't so arduous, our project employs a slow and deliberate progression of each participating diver that requires being accompanied by a more experienced diver at each level of progressive penetration. Much like the "guide sysyem" used in Florida (at such locations as Indian and Alachua), we believe that divers should progress with guidance and great caution in dangerous caves such as Goodenough Springs."

QUESTION: If GESP stands so firmly behind Chuck Noe(as they should) then just how did Chuck come about this experience beyond full cave and trimix? I know you will revert back to Robert Laird taught him but then who taught Robert Laird? Maybe if you would take the time to realize someone had to risk it all to get this experience beyond full cave and trimix sometime in the past without ever having been progressed though your steps. While I think all the GSEP members (past and current) are all exceptional divers with great abilities and knowledge, I think this all comes down to feelings being hurt or at mininum an ego being threatened!

Is it not possible other divers have the exact same abilities and knowledge you guys do? Or is the person who taught all of you guys a mysteriuos private instructor you keep locked away in some closet the same way you are attempting to lock away a national park system that belongs to every American who pays or has paid the price to be here? Surely you guys DO NOT place yourselves above others as superior? If so then what about all those Florida Pioneers who put their lives on the line to figure it out when the certs didn't even exists?

 

[M G]

We have an approximately 10 year track record of openly sharing our experience at Goodenough. Our responses range from countless private communications with non-team members, presentations to dive clubs and public presentations at events like Seaspace. Over the same time period, many divers have taken advantage of this information responsibly and have shown their appreciation in many forms (e.g. letters of thanks, financial donations, reporting site and equipment conditions to the project team, etc). However, don't expect us to get baited into argumentative exchanges with people who obviously have agendas or to respond to inconsiderate demands that call on us to explain our methods. We will focus our attention more on sincere inquiries.

 

[spelogirl]

MG which is it? You say this...

K-Valve obviously lacks credibility. While it is true that GSEP scales down operations when the lake water cools, we have conducted many dives during the winter and we certainly do not limit ourselves to wet suits. Our experience diving Goodenough has led us to the conclusion that diving in the winter should generally be avoided when possible and that any dives requiring "longer" decompression should be conducted during the summer. To plan something requiring longer decompression in November is indicative of either ignorance or poor judgement. This is the case at Goodenough for reasons that I will not elaborate on in detail. This whole situation really has us reconsidering how freely we share information with others.

I don't want to make hollow accusations about untrue statements as K-Valve did regarding Chuck, so I offer the link below as photographic evidence of dry suit use by GSEP. John Kelly is clearly diving dry and I don't own a black wet suit.

But now you say, "I don't believe I said that diving operations continue year round". So which is it; do you dive year-round or not? Now you're crawfishing. This all seems to be a case of poor judgment.

This whole ordeal with Chuck is ridiculous! Is he just that hot headed? Or does he just have some kind of personal vendetta against those two? He certainly has not gained much popularity (at least positive) over his recent actions. I will give him this though, he has held true to his word about not saying anything else after his last post. Being a good diver does NOT make you a good person. It’s a complete lack of distaste on Chuck Noe’s part to say the awful things he said in private emails and then try to come across as an angel in public forums. How do people like this get through life?

It was bad judgment that started this whole thing and it’s the continued bad judgment that has kept it all going. And now GSEP is showing even WORSE judgment by trying to justify their inappropriate actions by digging the hole even deeper