GUE - Fundies?

[Blackwood]

Agreed.

I think it's silly to practice for the class to any great extent. That's just a wicked expensive way to show off. Take a class to learn, not demo. If you don't pass, you have plenty of time to then go practice before getting re-evaled (for those flying the instructor in, I can see a desire to pass first go, otherwise, who cares.).

If you're going to work on anything, it should be getting comfortable in the gear you'll use for the class. Focus on buoyancy first, and trim secondly. If you can hook up with local DIR divers before then, great, if not, no big deal. If you're comfortable in the water, you have all the basis you'll need to get a lot out of the class.

I half agree and half don't. I think it's important to remember what fundies is: a class to prep people for other GUE courses.

Some people may need a lot of work to get to that basic level. For them, I agree. Make the class as much of a learning experience as possible.

However, there are plenty of people (I'll take the easy road and suggest students of post-GUE Andrew G) who could pass DIR/F without breaking a sweat, but are still forced to take it in order to progress to Tech/Cave. For those, it serves as a highly expensive demo.

I really think GUE would be well served by allowing people to challenge Fundies the way I challenged some math and sciences courses at engineering school. If they can pass without going through the rigamaroll, let them move on without the hit to the pocketbook.

 

[Rainer]

I half agree and half don't. I think it's important to remember what fundies is: a class to prep people for other GUE courses.

Some people may need a lot of work to get to that basic level. For them, I agree. Make the class as much of a learning experience as possible.

However, there are plenty of people (I'll take the easy road and suggest students of post-GUE Andrew G) who could pass DIR/F without breaking a sweat, but are still forced to take it in order to progress to Tech/Cave. For those, it serves as a highly expensive demo.

I really think GUE would be well served by allowing people to challenge Fundies the way I challenged some math and sciences courses at engineering school. If they can pass without going through the rigamaroll, let them move on without the hit to the pocketbook.

How is that disagreeing? Sure, there are a lot of people we both know (yourself included) that could step into a GUE-F class and pass without any real trouble. But how does that change my argument about not needing to practice extensively? Either you're green enough where practicing on your own isn't going to be too helpful or you're good enough where practicing on your own isn't going to be too helpful. Either way, no need for countless dives doing the basic-5 or working on kicks.

As far as being able to "challenge" the course, I see both perspectives. I think it's silly that people we both know can't for example even take a GUE scooter class, since they don't have GUE-F. That said, it'd be hard to really make sure everyone was on the same (GUE) page with just a checkout dive.

 

[rjack321]

The OP has access to like-minded divers in Vancouver/Victoria, so I would suggest diving with them and then talking about what might be good specific things to do before class. Since there's no generic answer for a budding GUE-f diver.

PM Bismark and he'll hook you up with some fun dives to help get you started.

 

[b1gcountry]

As far as being able to "challenge" the course, I see both perspectives. I think it's silly that people we both know can't for example even take a GUE scooter class, since they don't have GUE-F. That said, it'd be hard to really make sure everyone was on the same (GUE) page with just a checkout dive.

My wife got a provisional pass in Fundies, and did a weekend re-eval with Ed a couple months later. I don't see much harm in letting divers pass fundies with just a one day eval. It's one of my major complaints about GUE. They have the same attitude as PADI where no other classes can crossover to their agency.

This is actually one of the biggest problems with Fundies. It's a class, but too many people come into it with the attitude that they want the signoff to go on with. It's an expensive checkout dive, guys. You get much more your money's worth out of the class if you actually let the instructor teach you something . . . And you'll learn it right the first time.

There are also the folks that live so far away from a fundies instructor that it is very hard to schedule a class. Not only did I have to travel 350 miles for my fundies class (and another 200 for the re-eval), but it also took about 9 months to actually get it scheduled. That 9 months was about 50 practice dives in my doubles/drysuit, so I wanted to take it to learn, but wound up aceing the class because I had so much time to get comfortable with my buoyancy, trim, and propulsion in the kit.

Tom

 

[Rainer]

My wife got a provisional pass in Fundies, and did a weekend re-eval with Ed a couple months later. I don't see much harm in letting divers pass fundies with just a one day eval. It's one of my major complaints about GUE. They have the same attitude as PADI where no other classes can crossover to their agency.

Moving on to the higher GUE classes isn't just about how you look in the water (though that certainly plays a large role). Personally, when I stepped up to T1, I'm glad I didn't have to concern myself with whether or not my teammates were on the same page with respect to dive planning, gas choices, MDL tables, deco theory, hand signals, team awareness, pre-dive checks, gear layout, etc. All that was covered in a previous class, where standards are taught and enforced. We were quickly able to get to the heart of T1 training in a way that might not have been possible with a very good diver who had not had a similar GUE-F experience. How you can assess all that is taught in GUE-F in a single checkout dive is a real issue. Don't get me wrong, as I tried to make clear earlier, I'm quite sympathetic to those who DO have the GUE-F knowledge but not the c-card who want to take further GUE training. I just don't think a single dip in the water is enough. That's exactly why GUE added the Fundamentals class in the first place; too many unqualified divers trying to get into 'tech' and cave classes.

 

[Blackwood]

How is that disagreeing?

It's not. I think I misread the first sentence of your post (subconsciously added "not" before the practice) and then just sorta went off on a tangent. heh.

That said, it'd be hard to really make sure everyone was on the same (GUE) page with just a checkout dive.

Absolutely. No question about it. I wasn't really envisioning a single checkout dive. More like sit down and discuss diving philosophy for a couple of hours (in addition to a 'proof of concept' dive or two).

Really, I think that (diving philosophy) is my biggest concern. Hand signals, dive plans and turn pressures can get worked out pretty well between two divers with different backgrounds. What I really want to know is what your values are underwater. Are you a team player? Will we approach emergencies the same way?


That said, I do agree that it's fantastic understanding based on a specific class that someone is a good match. Hell, we did one easy beach dive together before jumping into stage decompression. But still, it's somewhat annoying that if I wanted to take Cave through GUE I'd have to jump through the GUE/F hoop.

That's exactly why GUE added the Fundamentals class in the first place; too many unqualified divers trying to get into 'tech' and cave classes.

Bears repeating.

I think what's unfortunate is that it isn't really portrayed (at least by certain personalities, online, etc.) as a pre-requisite anymore. Instead, it's often made out to be like a 'badge of honor' (not my words).

 

[gxsr_sarge]

Think back to Fundies - don't you remember how fast paced it was? If during the first dive on the first day, you can't get past a basic skill, you're just going to get frustrated and that feeling is going to snowball when you realize you're slowing down the pace for the rest of the team.

IMHO, you need to be as prepared as you can be in anticipation of ANY CLASS in order to get the most out of it! For example, a minor detail like making sure that your light cord is not interfering with the deployed hose during an S-drill is meaningless if you can't even stay trim, are floating up or down or are crashing into your out-of-air diver.

 

[Rainer]

Think back to Fundies - don't you remember how fast paced it was? If during the first dive on the first day, you can't get past a basic skill, you're just going to get frustrated and that feeling is going to snowball when you realize you're slowing down the pace for the rest of the team.

IMHO, you need to be as prepared as you can be in anticipation of ANY CLASS in order to get the most out of it! For example, a minor detail like making sure that your light cord is not interfering with the deployed hose during an S-drill is meaningless if you can't even stay trim, are floating up or down or are crashing into your out-of-air diver.

Your example doesn't make your point. Everyone agrees you need to be able to sit relatively quietly in the water before you'll get much out of the class. Trying to teach yourself the entire class, however, is silly. That's what you're paying for. I don't think I'm getting the most out of a class if I already know all the material. I do need to know enough, however, to be able to take it all in. For GUE-F that means being comfortable (i.e. stable) in the water with all the gear. Doesn't mean you'll pass at the end of four days, but you should be able to walk away knowing what you need to work on. After that, go practice, and come back for a checkout dive. A similar amount of non-practice is needed to go on to T1.

 

[Blackwood]

Think back to Fundies - don't you remember how fast paced it was? If during the first dive on the first day, you can't get past a basic skill, you're just going to get frustrated and that feeling is going to snowball when you realize you're slowing down the pace for the rest of the team.

IMHO, you need to be as prepared as you can be in anticipation of ANY CLASS in order to get the most out of it! For example, a minor detail like making sure that your light cord is not interfering with the deployed hose during an S-drill is meaningless if you can't even stay trim, are floating up or down or are crashing into your out-of-air diver.

At least one problem with that is the potential to develop hard-to-break bad habits.

Another is that to practice team diving you need a team.

 

[b1gcountry]

Moving on to the higher GUE classes isn't just about how you look in the water (though that certainly plays a large role). Personally, when I stepped up to T1, I'm glad I didn't have to concern myself with whether or not my teammates were on the same page with respect to dive planning, gas choices, MDL tables, deco theory, hand signals, team awareness, pre-dive checks, gear layout, etc.

My wife's re-eval was five dives over two days. It included quite a lot of time in and out of the water, including video review. Maybe this is not typical, I don't know.

You can certainly assess all those attributes in that amount of time. Probably even in half that time. Give them the final exam to complete, and you get to make sure their book knowledge is up to snuff as well. If they aren't up to snuff, they just fail, plain and simple.

Gas choices and tables weren't really discussed in my fundies class, but Tech 1 will certainly go in greater depth anyway, so I don't consider it overly important. Hand signals and pre-dive checks are something a good diver should be able to adopt very quickly anyway.

Tom