H-1 Dive tools - Need help

[Walter]

Dive knives are frequently lost. Other than weights, I find more knives than anything else. For this reason they should be dirt cheap. Also, you never want to be tempted to try to recover a dropped knife because of its price. The biggest fault with most dive knives currently available is the sheath. They are not secure. The knife should be sharp enough to cut thick line. I prefer a sharp point.

 

[utdivermatt]

I agree with Walter the sheath is probably the most important part. Its almost a catch-22 in all reality, you want one secure enough to not lose the knife, but still have the ability to get it out when you need it with ease... with one hand and gloves on. If you ever find a way to make one that can do that, I bet it would sell in a hurry.

 

[Green_Manelishi]

Hi,

I am involved in designing a series of dive tools for a small knife company in Golden, Colorado called Spyderco. The material that we use is a fairly new stainless steel designated H-1.

The material has proven to be ideal for the salt water environment. We currenty offer 4 models of corrosion free folding knives. Folders are difficult to make corrosion free because of all of the parts involved.

We are now in the design stage of fixed blade models, including dive knives in particular.

While I have experience in knife design, you are the market and are my best source of detailed info as well as the thoughts behind "why". I use knife forums regularly to get feedback but dive knives have very specific requirements and we would like to create the "perfect" dive knives.

I am interested in discussion on knives; sizes, shapes, edges, hooks, handles, sheaths, etc. What you want/need and what you don't want/need.

We are also working on other dive tools such as shears made from H-1, so I would also be seeking your expertise in this area as well.

Thanx much.

sal

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The entire "business chain" from; raw materials, invention, design, manufacturing, marketing, selling, distributing, shipping, warrantees, insurance, credit, etc. ALL EXISTS to service the ELU (End Line User). Remove the ELU from the equation and the entire business chain falls like a house of cards. We all work for you!

Small? Spyderco?

Anywho, my recommendations from experience:

full tang
no scales
friction fit sheath; no goofy locking mechanism. just friction.
spyderco serrated blade
no "line cutter" notch ... that's the function of the blade

http://green-manelishi.info/main/diving/images/cuttingtools.jpg

 

[MSilvia]

I am interested in discussion on knives; sizes, shapes, edges, hooks, handles, sheaths, etc. What you want/need and what you don't want/need.

We are also working on other dive tools such as shears made from H-1, so I would also be seeking your expertise in this area as well.

Hi Sal,

I like the following things in a knife:

• Positive locking sheath. Underwater, you need to know your knife is there regardless of your orientation. It isn't enough to have the knife "hang" in the sheath.
• good line cutting ability, regardless of whether the is monofilament or several inches thick.
• A point. Some divers say they're unnecessary, but mine doubles as an underwater hunting knife, and a point is useful.
• I like the line cutter opposite cutting edge, close to the hilt.
• A hammer end isn't particularly important to me, but I like a full tang construction.

As for shears, the standard EMT shears are excellent, but they sometimes snap and the pivot bolt rusts out. If they were stronger and had a stainless bolt, you'd have a winner. If they could easily be taken apart for cleaning, that would be nice too.

 

[codecruncher]

I'm a new diver, but I'll give a salt a try out and compare it to my little squeeze wenoka titanium. I also have a 20+ year old Wenoka ez-lock blackie collins that I rarely use - too big, too heavy for defense against panfish

Features I'd be looking for in a fixed knife:
- blade material (non-rusting, but holds an edge, easy to maintain)
- size (not too big - want to be able to mount it on a 2" web strap)
- sheath design (any metal here needs to be just as non-rusting as blade)
- flexible sheath mounting options
- has a hole in the handle end to add lanyard or bolt snap if needed
- blade has one side sharp, other serrated - I prefer a double edge, why waste space that can be put to good use?
- blunt tip (no dry suit holes...)
- bright color in case I drop it

Regarding the shears, I have some Wusthof kitchen shears that are great - they come apart easily for cleaning and the design is such that there is no "center bolt" to rust away. Follow something like this and you'd have a winner.

 

[Bob3]

I'm a fan of the Gerber River Shorty; a friend worked for the parent company so I loaded up with a bunch thinking I'd lose a few.
My original one is still planted (handle down) on my harness' shoulder, having survived all manner of nasty conditions found while working on the bottom of the Mississippi River.
You can see it in the pic on my left shoulder just above the ring.

 

[Green_Manelishi]

Hi,

I am involved in designing a series of dive tools for a small knife company in Golden, Colorado called Spyderco. The material that we use is a fairly new stainless steel designated H-1.

The material has proven to be ideal for the salt water environment. We currenty offer 4 models of corrosion free folding knives. Folders are difficult to make corrosion free because of all of the parts involved.

We are now in the design stage of fixed blade models, including dive knives in particular.

While I have experience in knife design, you are the market and are my best source of detailed info as well as the thoughts behind "why". I use knife forums regularly to get feedback but dive knives have very specific requirements and we would like to create the "perfect" dive knives.

I am interested in discussion on knives; sizes, shapes, edges, hooks, handles, sheaths, etc. What you want/need and what you don't want/need.

We are also working on other dive tools such as shears made from H-1, so I would also be seeking your expertise in this area as well.

Thanx much.

sal

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The entire "business chain" from; raw materials, invention, design, manufacturing, marketing, selling, distributing, shipping, warrantees, insurance, credit, etc. ALL EXISTS to service the ELU (End Line User). Remove the ELU from the equation and the entire business chain falls like a house of cards. We all work for you!

The most common failure with most shears is that the pivot pin rusts out. I am not sure what the exact cost savings is by using cheesy-metal at such a critical point but the manufacturers might be utilizing the marketing concept of "will have to be replaced and generate future sales".

 

[Green_Manelishi]

I will have to post the link .. can't include the pic?

http://green-manelishi.info/main/diving/images/knife&sheath.jpg

Comments on "as it was, as it is now":

One piece of steel.

No scales to trap water or make handle "too big" when using heavy mitts. I removed the scales.

One serrated cutting edge (it had two but I dulled the spine edge; it was unnecessary unless you were trying to cut into an enemy on the "backstroke").

No "line hook". A line hook is unnecessary if the primary cutting edge is sharp. If the hook is part of the primary edge it is nothing more than a reduction in usable cutting edge.

Can be used as a "hammer" if necessary.

Sheath is friction fit. No mechanism. Positive lock into sheath.

Sheath can be attached to almost any harness, etc.

Improvements that should be made:

No to chisel grind. Chisel looks cool but is not optimal.

H1 steel to reduce corrosion.

Holes where scales were bolted on are not necessary when there are no scales.

General Comments:

A knife has one purpose. To cut. Not to be pretty (although they can be things of beauty) or sit around impervious to the elements (but if they are that's certainly helpful). To cut. All else is (almost) secondary.

The sheath must retain the knife securely but not fight to retain it when it is needed by the owner. Kind of like a holster for a gun. Unless you are careless or fear being disarmed, I am unsure why a locking mechanism is needed.

Cute little knives are generally not as useful as a butt-ugly (or attractive) medium sized knife.

Cute little locking mechanisms, or better yet a spring-loaded-eject-it-partially-from-the-sheath are worse than useless.
They jam or fail.

A full tang, reasonably sized knife, needs no scales. Worse than scales are knives that are partial, half or no tang where the handle is somehow attached to the blade. A single piece of sharpened steel is all that is necessary. It's easy to clean.

My qualifications to spout off:

Do I need qualifications?

Even above water I generally carry two knives. One folds, the other does not. In the past I also carried a gun, but that's another subject.

A knife can be used for cutting many more things than lobster trap line or cave string. My education and experiences in that regard have been applied toward "what I look for in a dive knife". After all, the only real difference is the environment in which it is being used; it's still a knife with one purpose ... to cut.

 

[Ber Rabbit]

My ideal knife would be:
Easy to clean, one piece of metal would be nice
Easy to attach to BC/harness/belt. My current knife with the plastic sheath has to be zip-tied on and it slips around and annoys me.
Sheath option would be nice since some people prefer locking and others prefer friction. You could get "Knife X" and have a choice of "sheath A" or "Sheath B". Not sure how practical designing two types of sheath for one knife would be.
I have small hands and wear thick drysuit gloves, the knife should be easy to handle and not slippery.
Should be able to hold an edge I can shave with.
Blunt tip
Hole for lanyard with a place on the sheath to attach the lanyard as well.
Ber :lilbunny:

 

[salg]

Some really valuable info, thanx much.

However......I'm a bit anal retentive, obsessive-compulsive in my approach to design so I need more detailed information if possible?

Many have listed blade size as "smaller" or "larger". It would be great if I could get actual preferred size in inches or mm.

Is weight a factor?

Details like "removable handle scales" or "no handle scales" are great.

I have no doubt it will take more than one model to serve your needs/desires, such a pointed or blunt tips. We would like to get as close as is possible to "ideal".

Are there particular features that you like or don't like in existing models on the market?

What about hard handle materials vs soft handle materials?

"Tank bangers" is an accessory that is desirable on the knife. Are there any other accessories that "would be nice" additions?

thanx again, sorry to be so pushy.

sal