Have not seen this done before!

[jadairiii]

Nitrox is too complicated and an unnecessary addition to OW. .

Nitrox for recreational divers should take no more than about 30 min to teach as long as the students are relatively intelligent (ie, they are not eating crayons).

Most recreational Nitrox class over complicate the topic anyway. As others have stated, i am always amazed to watch people on dive boats talking about mixes, CNS, OTU's and yet never once check the mix in their tanks....

 

[Landlocked123]

Bottom line this is not cool. It is a trust me dive for those divers that were not certified. Realistically if the dive is a hard bottom and the MOD is nowhere in sight,on paper nothing should go wrong. But I agree that this is not the way to run things. What if one of the tanks were hotter mix than the others ? bottom line you are responsible for knowing the mixture you dive and when I dive Nitrox I test the tank after its filled with the attendant present and we register the tanks and I sign off on the fill. There is no problem with how this was done unless stupid shows up to the dance and he has been known to pop in from time to time. Bad practice that should be avoided.

 

[ChuckP]

Was it not @Wookie that sometime ago spoke of the decrease in DCS on his liveaboard by adding the nitrox option?

I'm not implying he forced it on them or allowed uncertified folks to use it - I sort of remembered him saying they offered it for "free" with a discounted nitrox class something or another. My memory of the reasoning made perfectly good sense..

Maybe he'll chime in and correct me if it wasn't him.....

 

[Joneill]

Nitrox is too complicated and an unnecessary addition to OW. During my OW class they covered Nitrox enough to explain the very basics so we understood what it was and some of the parameters when diving it. It was a great introduction with enough informatiion for us to decide whether it was a course we wanted to take.

When I took the SDI Nitrox course there was a lot to get down as we had to work everything through on tables and many dive situations, many repeat dives (up to 4) with varying SI's, depths, and a few gotcha's - violating the MOD, exceeding CNS exposure, and PO2.

It was a lot to take in in a stand alone course. Adding all that to OW would be total information overload.

After taking the course I decided, for various reasons, that I didn't want to go through all the extra procedures and keeping track of MOD and CNS. The way I dive, it's just unnecessary. I'm glad that I took the course. I just don't want to be bothered using Nitrox. I'd bet a lot of OW students would be the same.

I honestly don't see where Nitrox is that complicated - I took the course shortly after I completed my OW cert and it’s very straightforward stuff.

Just like on Air, there is a MOD and the potential for Ox Tox - it just kicks in at shallower depths. The other thing to watch in multi-day diving is CNS levels.

However, it's not rocket science and for a rec diver who has a reasonable understanding of the fundamentals of diving following a properly programmed dive computer, I just don't see where it adds any meaningful complexity? I already analyze every tank for CO with my Cootwo, so no extra effort for Nitrox versus Air.

 

[boulderjohn]

When I was Nitrox certified, it was not long after the mainstream agencies had decided it was safe to use after all. the PADI course I took was very complicated, and the exam was difficult. We had to do all sorts of mathematical calculations on the 50 question test.

Years later I became an instructor, and I was surprised to see how much easier the course had become. It is even easier now.

There is a reason for it being so much easier. Research since the time I learned it showed that it was not as dangerous as people thought. Pulmonary O2 toxicity was a really big deal on the test when I took the class, but today it is barely mentioned because it just isn't going to happen in a recreational setting. The CNS limits for PPO2s of 1.4 and below are also extremely safe. I read recently where one expert said that studies showed you could dive at those levels pretty much all day and be safe.

The highly complex courses for recreational Nitrox are a thing of the past for most agencies. I guess some are still doing it.

 

[Gareth J]

When I was Nitrox certified, it was not long after the mainstream agencies had decided it was safe to use after all. the PADI course I took was very complicated, and the exam was difficult. We had to do all sorts of mathematical calculations on the 50 question test.

Years later I became an instructor, and I was surprised to see how much easier the course had become. It is even easier now.

There is a reason for it being so much easier. Research since the time I learned it showed that it was not as dangerous as people thought. Pulmonary O2 toxicity was a really big deal on the test when I took the class, but today it is barely mentioned because it just isn't going to happen in a recreational setting. The CNS limits for PPO2s of 1.4 and below are also extremely safe. I read recently where one expert said that studies showed you could dive at those levels pretty much all day and be safe.

The highly complex courses for recreational Nitrox are a thing of the past for most agencies. I guess some are still doing it.

Dito for my original course.
I reckon there where more calculations in my Advanced Nitrox course than my MOD3!

I did my course in the October. In the May we where in Scapa, my Buddy and I where the only pair using Nitrox, we did all the UPTD and CNS calc's for the whole week, (Bottom mix - 21, Deco 50%). The calculations wheren't needed. The following year we did it again, using optimum mix on the bottom. Even then, we where well inside the numbers.

A lot of agencies now have Nitrox inclusive in the core training (e.g. BSAC Ocean Diver). Its now some mainstream, so different from the early days when we smuggled Nitrox onto boats because it was thought to dangerous for mortals to use.

Gareth

 

[CT-Rich]

I think most new divers would be totally confused by nitrox if they learned as part of OW. That presents a greater hazard than was created by this dive op. I think as a business practice this type of diving is I’ll advised, to say the least. But, I think new divers having misconceptions about nitrox (or any aspect of their training) is more dangerous than a clear understanding of a more limited range of concepts.

This takes us back to the threads arguing about training in the old days with a single certification versus the multi tiered approach used today with OW/AOW. Besides, most new divers are not going to to do the multiple tank dives to warrant the added expense of buying nitrox and keeping gearnitrox clean.

The problem for the dive op was many of the divers on that boat werepaying for a trust me dive. Appalling as it is to people that take diving seriously, many of the people on that trip have resort training and will never do it again. The dive op is looking at it from the perspective of how can we idiot proof these dives? Make sure everyone has a good time, doesn’t get bent, leaves their money with the cashier and saves them calling in a helicopter evac (always bad for business).

The dive, strictly speaking, was idiot proof. An 80 lbs woman sipping air like a humming bird is going to be hard pressed (or at least harder pressed) to go into deco on a 70’ dive if she loses track of time. My guess is the shop was giving the computers out so they could monitor the guests, not so guests could self monitor. It seems like a fairly shrewd, if cynical, way to keep idiots from hurting themselves on their boats.

 

[Kharon]

I honestly don't see where Nitrox is that complicated - I took the course shortly after I completed my OW cert and it’s very straightforward stuff.

Just like on Air, there is a MOD and the potential for Ox Tox - it just kicks in at shallower depths. The other thing to watch in multi-day diving is CNS levels.

However, it's not rocket science and for a rec diver who has a reasonable understanding of the fundamentals of diving following a properly programmed dive computer, I just don't see where it adds any meaningful complexity? I already analyze every tank for CO with my Cootwo, so no extra effort for Nitrox versus Air.

Try doing it from tables when you are just being exposed to Nitrox. SDI still teaches OW using tables. Trying to keep the two straight while figuring out multiple dives with varying SI's and some gotcha's thrown in - just to make sure you understand. Yeah. Thats too complicated to throw at a noob. They have enough trouble trying to master the physical skills. They don't need additional mental stuff thrown in.

OW card is just a learners permit. No additional task loading should be added until the critical skills of OW have been mastered. If, as has been posted above, people woking at a facility sometimes fill a nitrox tank with air, an air tank with nitrox, and don't get the gas mixes correct, what do you think is going to happen to someone who got nitrox on the fly during OW? Hell the training has gotten superficial enough and you want to add more material to be breezed through. Bad idea!

 

[Kharon]

Just like on Air, there is a MOD and the potential for Ox Tox

Never heard of a MOD, Ox Tox, or CNS at rec depths. Certainly not at 60' and less.

... for a rec diver who has a reasonable understanding of the fundamentals of diving following a properly programmed dive computer

So you're saying an OW student is a rec diver with a reasonable understanding of the fundamentals? Nah! Add do all/most OW students have a properly programmed dive computer (and know how to use it)? Nah

Argument for arguments sake ==> Ignore

 

[kelemvor]

Where are you getting the 1,000 PSI measurement? Is this something I am missing?

Also, if the max depth is 70', where is the major concern? I'm one that thinks Nitrox should be taught with OW, and not an additional fee to PADI, SSI, etc...

I couldn't agree more. It's exceedingly simple, and should at most be a chapter in every open water manual. The fact that a separate class is "needed" is just to make money for instructors and agencies. Most of the stuff you learn in a nitrox class is just filler that isn't really necessary to safely dive with nitrox.

Bravo to Top Dive for doing the right thing in regards to nitrox, in my opinion. The customers were already doing trust-me dives if they didn't know how to operate their dive computers. Nitrox or not, that fact would not change.