Have You Outgrown Your Dive Shop?

[Trace Malinowski]

In my girlfriend's world of figure skating every skater needs the ice rink to have somewhere to skate. The pro shop is almost never a thought. In fact, few pro shops are capable of meeting the needs of their high end skaters. Sonya drives to the NYC area and Delaware to get her skates sharpened rather than get them sharpened at any local rink or any of the rinks at which she coaches in nearby states or across the country. None of the rinks at which she skates or coaches carries her brand of skates. She likes Harlick out of San Carlos, CA. She chooses coaches inside and outside her rinks and recently has trained with Mirai Nagasu and Tom Zakrajsek, Karen Courtland Kelly, and Maya Usova. She can walk into her pro shop and buy things like magic markers or skate guards and never get hassled. Her skating director supports her coaches getting trained by the world's top athletes and Olympic coaches or medalists.

She said to me today, "Dive shops seem to want total control. They want to control what you buy and the information you hear. How can you become a great diver if they block you from the instruction and equipment you need?"

Good question.

Do you feel like your dive shop encourages or discourages your personal growth? Do you see yourself outgrowing your dive shop? Or, does your shop have the talent or provide access to world class talent? Do you get a pat on the back when you achieve a goal outside the walls of the shop? Or, do you get hassled?

I grew up at PDIC HQ when it was in Pennsylvania under the former owners. I got hassled for taking GUE, NSS-CDS, NACD, TDI, IANTD, etc., classes. I was uninvited to be part of the shop for a while. Then, one day, I was offered the training director position because I possessed the skills and knowledge they needed between a career at TDI and being vetted by my friend Marcus who was the director of PDIC Brasil and a GUE IT/IE for tech and cave diving. We both rose to the top of PDIC after getting in trouble for not behaving ourselves.

At the dive shop level, does your shop support pros who seek information and education beyond the shop? Or, have you seen those who get education and gear elsewhere fired, ostracized, or become targets of criticism and gossip?

 

[Schwob]

Trace, (Warning: personal opinion) those are very, very good questions you are asking and I believe for very good reasons. All I can say is that my diving isn't far enough to dare to try to answer, although I know exactky what my answer would be for shops #1 & #2 I tried (jury is still out on #3, but looking considerably better). I couldn't believe some of the stuff I saw / heard...
...
I say one more thing: I am a pretty well observing person and wonder how the answers you might get might fall if / as you get them ... as one of my observations is that the way some shops seem to tick does not bode well to critics of "la famiglia", no matter how well meaning... and then, some are less controlling and less worried their survival depends on that sort of "negative control"... So a very experienced diver may not be under that influence anymore, but a newish diver might be ... and (personal opinion) more likely so if newish and influenced by such a shop only and not by an experienced diver friend or e.g. ScubaBoard... So, I think the answers you may get on SB might look better (for how shops fare in that regard) than if you could ask a more average not already 100% SB influenced sample of divers...
But those questions are still very good ones...

(based on the personal opinion of a statistically totally unrepresentative sample of a single, yet pretty green, but keenly observing diver)

 

[TMHeimer]

Trace, Pretty high level questions for the Basic Forum. As a retired DM I don't even think I can really answer them. Well, we basically have one PADI shop here anyway, so I'm no expert.
Personally, I don't think my dive shop encouraged or discouraged personal growth. They paid me to DM for 4 years. I took several courses from them and several in Florida, getting my "MSD"....
I'm not an Olympic diver.
I pretty much AM an Olympic clarinet player, but if you asked me to compare one renown teacher to another, or a Buffet clarinet to a Selmer or Yamaha, I'd say "whatever you prefer".

 

[Marie13]

My shop is DRIS. Outgrow it? Hell, no!

They enable my Great Lakes wreck obsession (dive boats on the lakes), instructors are excellent. You’re encouraged to go as far as you want. I’ve showed up with a few bits of used equipment. Nobody blinked. I think they realize everyone wants to save $$ where they can. I realize I am very spoiled. I’m sorry the rest of you with crappy shops don’t get to experience DRIS. I drive 50 miles each way. I know people who drive longer distances on a regular or semi-regular basis. While a lot of shops are only open until 7pm, DRIS is open until 9pm M-F. That’s a lifesaver. Mike runs a great operation. You’re treated like family.

Edit: can’t comment on the pro thing: but a number of the instructors/DMs are dual SDI/PADI. If you don’t like one instructor for something, there are others that teach the same.

The shop serves everyone from snorkelers to tech divers. Wide range of both equipment and classes. One of only two shops in the area that encourages Great Lakes diving. Doing a warm water trip for the first time in a few years over the winter.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Trace, Pretty high level questions for the Basic Forum.

Maybe the mods would prefer to move this to the advanced forum or elsewhere?

 

[Scubagolf]

Trace, I have experience with both “pro shops” at ice rinks and several LDS’s. My daughter was a competitive figure skater under the USFSA and I was very involved as a parent. Skates were never acquired locally, as top line figure skates are fitted and specially ordered at a location in SF or in LA. Rink pro shops do not depend on skate sales or skating lessons. The pro shop is an adjunct of the rink owner and is in the business of renting skates to the public during public sessions. LDS’s make a living selling BCDs, regs, computers, and wetsuits. The LDS in my experience has no interest in my “progress” as a diver. That is up to me and I have no problem with that.

 

[txgoose]

There have definitely been times when "my shop" have given me cookie cutter answers that I don't believe they believe. And it does make me cringe. That said, my family has been treated very well and the skills instruction has been absolutely spot on. I wait for the day that I stop getting the "you're gonna die if we don't do all of your work" type speeches.

Three months or so ago I spent about three hours in the shop pool trying to get rid of a nagging second stage tug. I bought gear from the shop during the visit. New hose and a swivel. Giving them my business. At the end of the dive I was saying my goodbyes and I mentioned some jaw fatigue. I was told that it was from my heavy steel conshelf seconds. Huh. OR it could have been from working for three hours with a bad second/hose position that I was using my jaw muscles to fight.

I still appreciate all that they have done for me, but those kinds of cookie cutter comments will eventually run me off if they don't cease. Because, if they don't cease I will take it as a confirmed indicator that there is no relationship and it is all business for them. I can get/give business anywhere. After taking our EAN class, my needs for the shop will go down quite a bit. I hope I find out there are some friendships involved. We'll see.

edit: Maybe I am not answering your question(s). My customer experience would make me lean towards assuming they would frown on a DM going elsewhere for training. That said, they have been supportive of my youngest possibly getting additional training from BSA's Florida Sea Base. But I also suspect they recognize not being supportive of him might be a relationship killer.

 

[SleepySlipper]

Having worked 4 different shops around the pacific, I would say they were all after the bottom line as a business. That being said, I have had fellow pro divers help to make me better, but never the shop. Business is business.

 

[Caveeagle]

Early in my diving life, (est 1990), I did encounter this I sort of a reverse way. I had been trained OW, AOW and cavern through local "shop A" which was pretty clearly a shop that focused on the college town students and mostly recreational trips and classes. My business migrated over to "shop B" where cave diving was a clear priority. ..never looked back.

I never took any "oath of allegiance" and would shop around as my work had me all over a 100mile radius of my new "home shop"

Two examples of "friction" stand out in my memory. Just dropping into "shop C" on a whim of curiosity, and was checking out some lights that were new to me and seemed to be priced very well. When the shop manager/owner asked me where I got my cave training, he got really rude with me and called me out and said I was either an unloyal customer of "shop B", or that I was spying on their pricing. He made it clear that he did not appreciate my interest there. (No kidding)

Another example, (shop #4). Again, I was in the market for a cave light, and asked this shop owner what he though about this new "upstart dive lighting" that I had heard about. This guy got all bent out of shape too! His shop Only sold "Brand X" lights, because they were local, and angels would fall from heaven if another brand of dive gear cut into this tight market of dive gear.

Nowadays, things are quite a bit different. There are certainly clicks of divers, and instructor that seem to pool around shops. But for the most part, instructors seem to operate independently, and many have a good relationship with several shops.

It's not hard to get caught in crosshairs of rumor and harsh negativity. I mostly just try to be nice and humble, and very careful not to say too much when around other divers.

 

[MichaelMc]

Sort of yes, or at least apart from their main focus, but my shops seem ok with that.

But when I got back into scuba I 'outgrew' rec focused shops very quickly in terms of nothing much left to sell me, beyond going pro. I got back in by taking the 100 hour scientific diving class on campus and then assisting in it twice, which as a benefit covers the full recreational program through NAUI rescue and master scuba diver and DANs first aid for professional divers. I think taking the class put me past any rec focused shops before I'd spent more than 3 days total in them beyond fills in Monterey. My time in two shops, 50 and 100 miles away, was for my initial BP/W, long hose setup, a Nitrox class, and a custom suit.

The local shop, Steels, 3 miles away, is eclectic, good people, seems mostly recreational or working divers, knows me as a DMC in the university program, seems more than fine that I do stuff he does not focus on. He was positively interested in the baby sidemount tanks I didn't get through him, filled them new from empty, refilled one from empty when I swapped a valve and just asked if I'd used a new o-ring, while telling me to take a look at the twin-72s someone was tearing apart in the shop.

The shop I got BP/W and regs from, Anywater, 50 miles away, is good people, solid, and seems to do a lot of tech O/C fills, but custom tiny doubles was not something they usually ordered and did not get back to me. They service the Mk 25 set I got from them. When I got some balanced 109s elsewhere, overhauled them myself, and then asked Anywater if they could also service them so it would be official for my dive program, the owner, Frank, called me on the phone to check that the work of breathing would be ok for my dive program before he serviced them, but seemed entirely fine, upgraded the balance chamber, and charged me little. I don't think any staff in that shop has ever told me BS.

I get fills and dive next to Breakwater Scuba, 120 miles away, they're often diving rebreathers, sell Hollis sidemount, and teach sidemount in several rigs, including XDeep. But I've never seen anyone diving sidemount there, so I'm not sure how many of those instructors are zero to hero sidemount instructors, and I'm past the how to attach bungees stage. (Recommendations of Bay area/Monterey, XDeep, tech intro sidemount instructors are welcome.)

I think I pop in on enough shops, 2 in the Bay and 3-4 in Monterey, that none would think I should just live in their ecosystem, if they were even inclined.

On the negative side, I browsed another San Jose shop and was told how a special colored Halcyon wing would really revolutionize my diving, and a senior staff told a prospective customer, who was nervous about sharks, that he had never seen a shark in X years of diving, it was nothing to worry about. I never returned, and they have a big on-site pool.

I'm not a pro in a shop, so I can't say on that. I think our program staff is all NAUI, but I think people readily consider other agency classes. But our instructors are dive staff at institutions, not working in a shop.

Big questions, I'm not sure my answers answer them at all. Maybe a wild stab at it. So, it seems pro shops make money renting skates, to very non-pro non-expert skaters. Dive shops rent and sell BC/reg/suits. But those are more expensive, so maybe more sensitive to the allure of other options. My sister was a principle ballerina, it seemed like her special order shoes were significantly more expensive than the standard ones, so young just having fun dancers/skaters would be unlikely to order them based on cost. So their appeal, if learned of, is small. My very nice XDeep sidemount BC is not more expensive than a high end jacket BC, but stocking sidemount, big and tiny doubles, BP/W, back inflate, and jacket BC might be too much for a shop, so they might rather staff only did 'standard' backmount, and the world of fairly equally expensive options just included the things they had space or sales volume to stock. Whereas the young/novice dancers/skaters can smile in admiration of the experts yet know they can't afford their gear. (Yet they might never get better until they get out of the clunky gear they are using.) <\end wild stab>