Helping A Friend, A Ccr Diver, Do's And Dont's

[teksimple]

Hello I am a friend of Fltek

<snip>
I am now expert( well maybe when it comes to rebreathers) and want to make diving with my new friends safe and enjoyable, not stressed out like Fltek has been, not what I call a good time.

Deepccr -

So you consider yourself an expert on rebreathers? You have two Mk-15's, but yet have less than 100 dives? Where did you get your Mk-15s? May I ask who your instructor was?

Are you sure you are not Fltek's little imaginary Scubaboard friend?

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Deepccr -

So you consider yourself an expert on rebreathers? You have two Mk-15's, but yet have less than 100 dives? Where did you get your Mk-15s? May I ask who your instructor was?

Are you sure you are not Fltek's little imaginary Scubaboard friend?

Teksimple that is a low blow, first to myself , for some here that dive's with the people here on this board, and that know's myslef, and second for questioining his abilties. Ive seen your smart remark's here in the form's, alway's arguing with caveseeker7, and other people on here.
Everyone know's me here, and know's i just got into rebreather's 6 month's ago . I don;t even know what a MK-15 Look's like, let alone go into the detail's of one.

Keep your remark's to yourself, if you would, i don't need to make up " imaginary " scuba board friend's. People like yourself ruin it for somone like myself trying to help another friend out. I would tell you where to go, but i will not lower myself to your standerd's.

As for my buddy, if he does answere you, im sure he will in great detail, as he know's that system well, and has dove it to 200' + on wreck's up in VA. Just look on ebay under my same name here, and in my feedback, you will see i sold my unit to him in VA, and he now live's here in FL.

Keep it real, otherwise keep it to yourself , period

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Here is a personal email I wrote before going on here . It was addressed to David, who is the buddy diving with the CCR rebreather, that Im trying to help here, and Luke, who is the buddy that just moved down from VA to FL. This was wrote mainly for David, as Luke and myself have agreed on allot of it over dinner, in trying to help David. This was just wrote at 8 Pm, then after not being able to sleep all night, at
4 am I came onto scuba board looking for more help. Here is the email :


Fellow's, after reading our discussion's and concern's , I have to be honest here, for my own safety.

A few month's ago., I decided to get into rebreather's, to get into deeper diving , etc . Over the past year, my judgment has been OK, to say the least.
Had I known it was going to lead me down the road that I have been down, and diving with the friend's that I " planned " to dive with at depth's beyond rec limit's, I can only say at this point , it was a learning experience , and put it behind me. I have to be honest here, for everyone here, including myself. After talking with David, and him not even sure if he bent his computer, blowing the chart's , etc, it made me realize it's a place where I don't want to be. We all make mistake's, but I must say, I feel David is rushing his ability's and taking way to many chance's.

I do not agree in allot of the decision's made, but have went along with it. After all rule # when diving CCR is to have a MIN of two sensor's , but most have three. I have waited over 6 month's, but it hasn't happened. I had a SCR which doesn't even require it, and was going to put two in and I did. I spent $1,500 just so I can monitor my loop mix. I bought into filling our own tank's, now were talking about Heliox, adding another gas, and what will you be using ? A Nitrox computer set at 32% still? I don't know, as my trust has been lost at this point.
We talk about wreck diving, but does anyone here other then myself have any REAL wreck practical? Going inside and going down three floor's, loosing light 300' back?

We talk about doing decompression diving, but yet last week, we didn't even know the basic's to go drift diving off my boat!! There are many thing's were learning day by day, but the difference is, I don't want something to cost me my life, because that person should have known, or was depending on me to teach them, and I failed to. Or better yet, my life is depending on that person, something happened beyond my control, but that person doesn't have the experience to help me, let alone help himself, because we went to far, to fast. simply put, I have over 500 dive's , which isn't much, but David only having around 50-75. That is where we are different, everyday he is still learing the basic's, where im much beyond that. There is a TON of practical yet to learn, and I can say , as I am very saddened to write this, is hopefully I will have a buddy for LONG term by writing this, rather then SHORT term because someone or something failed, and it cost someone's life.
I will be happy to dive with David, on OC, within rec limit's for right now. If you want to dive CCR, then the rule's of CCR must be applied. If you chose to go that route, and want to dive with me, then I will require something to monitor your " Loop " and adjust your profile, with a min of TWO sensor's. There are many other thing's also, but that being the first.
I can also say, I will not be going past rec limit's with a converted unit. I don't want to be a " Guinea Pig " and hope it work's. Yes people do it, it's there choice, there not diving with me


Many people dive different way's around the world, but one thing I have learned when diving, is you can have all the theory in the world, but without the practical , your only as good as your last dive. Many people are self taught, after all instructor's tried cave diving, with all the open water practical experience they have, and died in cave's, because they didn't get the training that was involved for that specialty. I spent the money to get the training for the type of diving I preferred to do. I know my limit's, and don't want to go past them. The sport is not worth dying for. I had buddies I would only cave dive with, and I had buddies I would do reef diving with, etc, but I wouldn't go into a cave with a buddy that didn't have the training just to dive with him. That's were I find myself today, making allot of bad choice's, and just going with the flow.

There are many other thing's I want to discuss, maybe one day , we can all have dinner to discuss it. Luke most doesn't apply, because we only dove once, but
you and myself tend to agree on allot here, and have discussed it before many times.

David, I hope you don't take this personally, as we have allot of great time's , going down to the Key's for the past two year's, and all the diving that we have done. Your a great friend, and by me holding this in, and lying allot, just to agree to keep diving together, will only keep making thing's worse for myself . I cannot continue to dive with someone I have lost ALLOT of trust with. Only thing I can say at this point, is if something did happen, as of today, at least I could say to myself, I have tried. But continuing to live in a lie, and if something did happen, I would feel terrible.

I would love to keep diving with everyone here, and have fun while doing it, and stay safe. I may pick the dive's I go on with everyone, and some I may let pass me by, but Im going to go with my inner feeling's , and start some where, and I guess it's here first.

There is ALLOT to talk about, thing's I agree with, disagree with, where I want to go from here, and what this will do for all of us. But at least from here on out, I'll feel better, hopefully will get some more diving in, and most of all, being safe. I must say, I'm so disappointed, at this point, that if I dive 30' reef's for the next year I wouldn't care.

I look back, last year David did his first dive to 80'. Now a year later your diving off a Jet-Ski, solo diving, with a CCR unit, congrat's to yourself, that's your decision, and hopefully it all work's out for you. As least from here on out, everyone knows where I stand, and it may be just 60' reef';'s you may find me on diving with everyone, or at this point, I may give it a break for a while, and join a dive club, and meet some people that have the same experience as I do, and dive the dive's with the same experience that I have. Only time will tell, but now tonight, I can finally get some sleep

Hopefully this is not taken in the wrong way. Hopefully it will just make us a stronger dive team, and when diving with each other, we know how everyone feel's, can trust each other, and we can all have fun, and stay writhen each person's limit's, it would be appreciated here, thanks !!!

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Deepccr -

So you consider yourself an expert on rebreathers? You have two Mk-15's, but yet have less than 100 dives? Where did you get your Mk-15s? May I ask who your instructor was?

Are you sure you are not Fltek's little imaginary Scubaboard friend?

Being you really pissed me off with that smart remark, why don't you call us on your dime, Im sure Luke would not have a problem , neither would I . Just Pm me, i have no problem giving you my tele # . But I'll let him answere your question's with the MK-15, and im sure you'll have all the info you'll need, he has two of them, and know's them inside and out. I'll let him answere that if he want's.

 

[teksimple]

Fair enough. Didn't mean to offend you. It was the post by deepccr that got my curiosity up, and as such, I was hoping to hear from deepccr himself. So I take it that he actually has more dives than 51-100? Maybe he was being modest with his experience? On the other hand, he did say that he was a rebreather expert, right?

The Mk 15 rebreather community is pretty small, so wondering if he had the same instructor as I did. I only know of six Mk-15 rebreather instructors in the US. I also find it rather impressive for someone to to have less than 100 dives under their belt and become Mk-15 certified, and then buy an additional unit at that. Mk-15's in good diving condition are expensive! If he does have less than 100 dives, deepccr must have known EXACTLY where he wanted to put his dive training funds, not to mention the thousands of dollars on that pair of Mk-15's.

As far as your other friend, if he can afford a jet ski and the vehicle to get it to the water, why can't he afford a used KISS rebreather?

 

[schford]

Deepccr -
Are you sure you are not Fltek's little imaginary Scubaboard friend?

What a scurrilous accusation.

We all know that owning 2 logins is against the TOS of scubaboard and you could get banned for it.

Just because the grammer and formatting of the posts of the two friends are so similiar as is the depth of their knowledge on CCRs there is no proof that Deepccr is really Fltek.

I mean the only way we could know that is if the post came from the same IP address.

Stuart

 

[schford]

I am still pretty skeptical but just for fun let's have a look at these shall we....

1. : As of today, 6 month's after the Conversion to CCR, just last month the one sensor he was using, went bad, only to find out, he bought the Oxy-gage off Ebay, and knew the sensor was a few year's old, but continued to use it , until it went bad, then he used a back up sensor. It is in a P connector , in the In-hale bag,that is the only form of monitoring his PPo2. As of today, i requested a min of two, to continue diving with me, also one that can monitor his loop gas as it change's with his profile.

So how did the sensor go bad then - how did he know about it? Ummm why could not the sensor in the inhale bag "monitor his loop has as it changes with his profile" - that statement does not make sense of course thats what it would do - are you sure you have done a rebreather course?

Personally I think one should always use 3 sensors.

2. : Using a Nitrox computer with no monitoring of the loop mix. He set's his Nitrox computer for the gas closest to the MOD for the dive. So say a 90' dive with a mix of 32% Nitrox , would be used in OC, he set's his computer for that, then follows it diving CCR. As of today, I requested a VR3 with a P connector that can monitor the loop mix, reason why, last week he did a dive for 52 min total dive time, to 90' , not sure if he bent his computer, not following any pre-dive plan, and got onto his Jet-Ski feeling really tired. I also suggested a set of $12 CCR table's, I even sent him the link.

It is what they used to do in the old days and still teach on CCR courses - this actually adds a huge safety margin. In fact they teach this on the Dolphin course - hey you sure you have done a course?

3. : He bought a Jet-Ski, to dive off by him self, and is diving off the coast of FL, 5 mile's out + , off a Jet-ski, with no dive buddy, on a CCR unit, that he doesn't even have 25 dives on. Most charter boat's down here will not let a CCR dolphin on their boat, cause of insurance reason's we found out. You have to be certified for that application only, to which one you are diving. So to get around that, he dives off the Jet-Ski now. He has offered for me to join, I have a 25' cabin cruiser, and will not dive alone, or leave the boat in anything over 30' of water, with-out leaving diver's on the boat. I have done it once or twice, but i don't plan to dive that way ALL the time.

#

Oh right - so 5 miles out on his own and he jumps in goes diving for an hour or so and then comes back and his Jetski is still there and hasn't floated away (unless I missed those big anchors jet skis carry). Even assuming he anchors it - if there is a current he will be far enough away not too be able to see a little Jet Ski, sounds a little far fetched to me....

4.: He wants to take the converted Dolphin past rec limit's , say 200' + , I know some people do this , with this unit, but as of today, I told him I will not be doing that dive plan with him. He feels that he dove the unit to 130' , what's the difference of a extra 70' ? I feel he should first get much more experienced, then buy a unit that is designed for that application. I said tonight to him, I don't want to be a Guinea pig wondering if the unit will work at 200'+ , or will he !!

Converted Dolphins are regularly dived to 300+ feet, not my cup of tea but nothing out of the ordinary in doing that, you shoudl always be experienced enough for the dive and work up to it.

5. : He is a "self study" . He now wants to add Heliox into his re-breather, so his Nitrogen build-up is none, or little , for more "Safety" How would he monitor his loop mix then ? VR3 ? He doesn't want to get training for that gas, so to not mess with the hassle of the LDS, he mixes his own right now, and would be mixing his own Heliox, which really scares me.

Hey I am not aware that any RBs out there on the civilian side monitor He in the loop now and we all manage to dive well enough. Self Study is fine if you are the type that does well out of it. In fact most of my friends self studied and dived with He before doing the course and then used the coruse to QA their skills / knowledge. - This is not for everyone though and some people absolutely must do the course first!

6. : He also fills a PST steel 100 CF tank to 4500 PSI of Pure O2, then brings it on my boat, and as he dives his 13 CF , he then top's off using the Steel tank with whip. I was told pure 02 is very dangerous at that pressure, is that true?

Fairly standard practise in UK to fill as 12l o2 clean 300 bar cylinder to 300 bar and then decant from it.

7. : If planning to go past rec limit's, I plan on taking advanced Nitrox-Extended range, but no agency will let him take the class on a CCR Dolphin. So he want's to skip all that training. What do you recommend for diving past rec limit's both OC and CCR ?

If this is real get him to talk to ron MicJan a good friend over at www.tmishop.com who runs a converted CCR dolphin course.

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Fair enough. Didn't mean to offend you. It was the post by deepccr that got my curiosity up, and as such, I was hoping to hear from deepccr himself. So I take it that he actually has more dives than 51-100? Maybe he was being modest with his experience? On the other hand, he did say that he was a re breather expert, right?

The Mk 15 re breather community is pretty small, so wondering if he had the same instructor as I did. I only know of six Mk-15 re breather instructors in the US. I also find it rather impressive for someone to to have less than 100 dives under their belt and become Mk-15 certified, and then buy an additional unit at that. Mk-15's in good diving condition are expensive! If he does have less than 100 dives, deepccr must have known EXACTLY where he wanted to put his dive training funds, not to mention the thousands of dollars on that pair of Mk-15's.

As far as your other friend, if he can afford a jet ski and the vehicle to get it to the water, why can't he afford a used KISS re breather?

Thank you, Apology accepted. I know deepccr for a short time, maybe a month here in FL. I dove with him once at Ginnie Springs to try the unit out i sold him, A SCR Dolphin, which is under my history on ebay. He has mentioned to me, he dove with a savage company with 0 vis, using Kirby Morgan helmet's, he showed me picture's of the two Mk-15's, he has a few Kerby Morgan commercial helmet's, about 8 dry suit's, and a ton of more scuba equipment. When i saw he put 50-100 diver's once you had mentioned it, i asked myself the same question, he had to be a mistake, someone doesn't won all that gear, and know as much as he does, with that little diver's. He does dive the Mk-15 to 200' off VA for wrecks , that's also something you don't do with 50-100 diver's. One he has is used, in mint cond, the other is brand new. I do not know what he paid for them, but he did mention he bought both from the same person.

As far as a used Kiss re breather , your right. If he wants to go beyond rec depth's, i feel he should get a re breather that is made for it, and that has a prove track record. I has the same discussion with him about that, my word's were " If it were safe and prov-en, everyone would be converting Dolphin's over " and diving them , instead of spending ALLOT more money the the cost of a Dolphin. Anyway, i know Luke wasn't feeling good last night, so I'm sure he'll post tonight. BigJetDiver asked to speak on the phone with me, I'll three way the conversation with him , myself , and Luke, if needed, but i got upset when you said i made a false friend up. Any Moderator on here, which i know some, and dive with some of them, can look my IP address up, and Luke's .

I only came on here to back up my feeling's to help a friend out,sharing them to get people with much more experience with re breather's giving suggestion's, to help my friend out. Thanks for understanding.

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

I am still pretty skeptical but just for fun let's have a look at these shall we....



So how did the sensor go bad then - how did he know about it? Ummm why could not the sensor in the inhale bag "monitor his loop has as it changes with his profile" - that statement does not make sense of course thats what it would do - are you sure you have done a re breather course?

Personally I think one should always use 3 sensors.



It is what they used to do in the old days and still teach on CCR courses - this actually adds a huge safety margin. In fact they teach this on the Dolphin course - hey you sure you have done a course?

#

Oh right - so 5 miles out on his own and he jumps in goes diving for an hour or so and then comes back and his Jet ski is still there and hasn't floated away (unless I missed those big anchors jet skis carry). Even assuming he anchors it - if there is a current he will be far enough away not too be able to see a little Jet Ski, sounds a little far fetched to me....



Converted Dolphins are regularly dived to 300+ feet, not my cup of tea but nothing out of the ordinary in doing that, you should always be experienced enough for the dive and work up to it.



Hey I am not aware that any RBs out there on the civilian side monitor He in the loop now and we all manage to dive well enough. Self Study is fine if you are the type that does well out of it. In fact most of my friends self studied and dived with He before doing the course and then used the course to QA their skills / knowledge. - This is not for everyone though and some people absolutely must do the course first!



Fairly standard practice in UK to fill as 12l o2 clean 300 bar cylinder to 300 bar and then decant from it.




If this is real get him to talk to ron MicJan a good friend over at www.tmishop.com who runs a converted CCR dolphin course.

The sensor went bad, I don't know how he knew that, but he came up from a dive, and said the sensor wasn't giving him good reading's. At Depth, he flushes his loop, breathing only air, the time's the ATA , and gets his PPo2 at depth. That's why he says he only needs one sensor. Cause he check's , he says every 5 min in a dive. I suggested a VR3 with a P connector also. Simply because last week he did a dive at 90' for 52 min, and felt very tired after the dive. My OC table's on 32% give a max bottom time of 35 min.


"Personally I think one should always use 3 sensors." I couldn't agree more !!

I disagree, with using a Nitrox computer for CCR. How can you use something with a fixed FI02 , when your PPo2 changes, and your manually flying a unit at 130' ? Like i said, i don't know much in that area, that's why i asked these question's.

As far as the Jet-ski, Yes, he does carry a Anchor with 600' of line, the type of ski he bought is called a Yamaha SUV, it's a Hugh ski , all most 14' long, but still a Jet-Ski. I have been boating all my life, and know taking a Jet-Ski out off shore the way weather Chang's here in FL so fast, is dangerous. Also I explained that with Florida's currents, running along the coast, there are going to be time's where they change so frequent, thing's beyond that he can control, and he may not be able to make it back to the jet-ski. He did by a Ebirp, a PLB, and is making a canister to house it in, in case he can't get back to the Ski, which Luke helped him with the design. Simply taking a Jet-ski that is made for a river, out in the ocean, leaving up there,, and solo diving breaks all the rule's in my book period. Like i said, people all around the world dive differently, but then it's my decision if i want to dive with them or not.

I Have not heard of Dolphin's being dove to 300', to myself, That's not my cup of tea either, like i said, if they are, the little i do know about re breather's, in which i have learned over the past 6 month's, it's not safe if you do so. I heard the scrubber design , and material are to big, and allow " channeling " to easy at those depth's. Needless to say, he can do what he wants , and that's his choice, but i will not be his buddy on those dives, my mind has been made up. #1 he lack's experience, and #2 the unit wasn't made for that, and i heard allot of design flaw's when taking that unit to those depth's, please keep in mind, someone on here will know allot more then me in that area.

Look on IANTD's website, i am certified on both the Dolphin, and the Azimuth, and the Instructor is here on the board, his name is Douglas Debersoul, why would i Lie about getting certified?

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

I have to say also, I came on here looking for answer's from more experienced people then myself in that field. All though I don't agree with some of my buddy's decsion's, I can say some thing's in his defense. this tread was started to help me understand if some of his practice's were careless, or if some of the thing's mentioned , diver;'s were doing on a bailey basis with that type of set-up.

In his defense, because some people here took it as I was bashing my buddy, when that was not the fact at all.

He has bought a Ebirp, in case he can't get back to his ski. He was looking into dry-suit's for protection in case he was at sea for a long period, say if he couldn't get back to his ski.
We do practice allot when diving together, such as deploying lift bag's, we go over dive procedure's, talk about it, and over the past year diving together , I did build allot of trust diving with him.
But it's been many thing's that added up, here, diving solo with little dive experience off a jet-ski, using one sensor on a CCR, not even knowing if he was in deco the last dive he did at 90' for 52 min, then feeling tired, and there's been other thing's,

Like where I didn't mention, he would dive the scrubber, and only put a hour or two on it, then mix some new scrubber material in it, and continue to dive the scrubber for another couple of hour's . I was taught to not fool around with mixing used scrubber material, and new. Now that may be common practice that I'm not aware of.

I am hoping to keep our friendship together here, and this was not to bash him at all. That's why I asked to please keep that in mind, and be respectful so that people wouldn't come on here, bashing him, or anyone here.

I do know the " basic rule's " of diving CCR, and #1 rule I always here is use a min of two sensor's, I prefer three.

Please keep this in mind , and try to help here, rather then question my ability's , or Luke's for that matter.

I can say for myself , for those that don't know me, I've been diving for 5 year's, I'm intro to cave, SCR rebreather, have plenty of other specialty's, and dive commonly to 130' to the wreck's here in FL, on double's, wearing a drysuit, carrying a lift bag, and have a OMS dual bladder set up also for redundant lift. I do allot of wreck penetration, sometimes plan decompression diving. Over all, I consider myself a good diver, that has made good decision's in the past, and when I didn't, like panicking in a cave 1000' in two year's ago, I'm here today, lived through it, and learned from it, and now dive writhen my limit's. I still have allot to learn, I look at diver's here on the board that commonly dive to 200' wreck's, and go past that to depth's of 300' +, and that takes allot of experience , and dive planning, and a good dive team. I hope to be that someday, but if it never come's, I accept that, as I don't want to push my limit's, and don't want die for this sport. Hopefully this help's understand myself, if not, you could always pm me, id be glad to answerer anyone's question's.

Please keep the tread to the subject, and all your opioun's and being taking in, and appreciated, thank you