Holy hog!

[rjack321]

I find it funny that nobody ever complains about this with the Hollis rigs. Out of the box, the tanks will ride out front of your shoulder blades. If you do the mods and set it up like the Armadillo, then you can get the tanks back. Why can't you mod the Razor? A short piece of webbing and some bungee is pretty easy to get.
Why is it okay to modify one system but not the other?

who said its not modified?

Just because there is a potential for something doesn't make it reliable. Being aware of that potential and being able to deal with it is what matters. Your standard rubber hoses could develop a bubble and burst at anytime, does this constitute that these aren't reliable then? A besides all I did was update asking about remove/reducing coil memory, so please explain how this makes anybody a wall lol?

Actually there are far more instances of braided hoses (milfex and others) causing problems than in any of the far more numerous rubber hoses in use. From wear and tear on the braided covering damaging other gear, to the recall on the HP hoses. And you got an update on the memory and additional info on one of their many shortcomings. Info which you dismissed as unimportant to you. I was just highlighting that its not you would be the one running OOA again when your 7ft hose pinches. Knock yourself out though, I'm sure you'll find them marvelous.

 

[Dive-aholic]

At this point, I am only using my Razor with steels when the cave is "crawly". I put about 25 dives on it with steel tanks before deciding it doesn't work with steel tanks, a drysuit (and for 20 of those dives) dry gloves.

The neck bungies are terrible and the necks will never be above the chest Drings and up behind your armpits by design. And my hips (32" waist) aren't wide enough to get the bottom of the tanks up below the plane of my hips when in trim. At one point I had the rear Drings up against the lower back plate with 3mm tails on the lower clips. They still hung too low for good swimming. I don't think its really possible to do anything but "front mount" steel tanks in a razor. Mine works ok on me with ALi tanks or my lp45s since they are only 5.5" diameter and if I am crawling through a sump who cares about swimming.

A smaller volume "trimmer" wing like the DR pillow is a good idea. The DSS razor wing is a giant booty extension on my butt since it has no baffles to flatten it out. Its also too damn long. Something 1/2 that size with ~20lbs of lift would be much more appropriate since the harness doesn't work well with larger capacity steel tanks anyway. Sadly, giving Tobin feedback on these things is like talking to a wall. Oh well.

I changed the way the neck bungees are routed on my Razor. The DR Pillow has a rivet on each side where I run the bungees through. This holds the pillow down on my back and holds the necks up where I want them. I also have the waist d rings moved up against the center back plate and short leashes. I haven't put it in the water with steel tanks although I have given it some thought. I have been able to get through some really small restrictions in that rig but AL80s just don't offer the amount of air I'd like to have, especially when going through really small restrictions! I'm going to have to give it a try with my Faber 85s. Ideally I'd like to dive it with steels and in a wet suit. Although my new dry suit is almost as streamlined as a wet suit.

---------- Post added February 2nd, 2013 at 12:48 AM ----------

Just because there is a potential for something doesn't make it reliable. Being aware of that potential and being able to deal with it is what matters. Your standard rubber hoses could develop a bubble and burst at anytime, does this constitute that these aren't reliable then? A besides all I did was update asking about remove/reducing coil memory, so please explain how this makes anybody a wall lol?

While this might be okay in open water, it's not really an acceptable risk in the overhead, IMO. I have seen more issues with the braided hoses in the past 4 years than I have seen with rubber hoses in the past 10. I've had that rubber bubble happen to me twice, both times caught before the dive and the hose changed out. The issues I'v seen with braided hoses have happened in the water and had either of them been in a non-training situation could both have easily ended with fatalities.

 

[oms121]

James

Where is that picture taken of you coming out of a tunnel near that T?

Lollipopped is the gauges sticking up from the tanks when standing. Basically forward of you. Like in my picture below.

I like Add Helium. Good folks.

. If you can find a pool, I will be back in Naples in A couple weeks. I can help you with setup if you like. My schedule is crazy now though.

View attachment 144567

 

[JamesK]

James

Where is that picture taken of you coming out of a tunnel near that T?

It's the Peanut Tunnel at Peacock Springs. It's not even actually a "T". It's a tie off.

 

[DaleC]

Quite a good discussion and I would just reaffirm the notion to not run out and buy an expensive SM rig. Try a few out first if you can.

For OW diving I've just been DIY'ing it for a while now and am always finding something I like or don't like and tweaking things. I suspect I may buy a purpose built rig (or at least the wing) down the road but by then I will have a pretty good idea of what I want. Excluding the cost of hoses (which are transferable) I've spent about $30 on two designs so far, plus stuff I had sitting in my garage.

My friend just ordered the sms50 so I suspect I will spend some time looking at (and diving) it

My first rig looked like this:





Basically just a wing sandwiched between two plates and bungied somewhat like a nomad. Mama mia! so much metal.

I've since removed the plates and just added some webbing to the wing. Basic but it works. The tops of the wing taco a bit (why I want a triangular wing down the road) but not that much if I get my weighting down to using very little/no air in the wing. When I have the design the way I want it I will just sew it all together. Additional cost of this rig - $0:







The quick ditch pockets are temporary (they make my tanks flare out at the butt) as I fiddle with the weighting but I wear two different undergarments (summer/winter) and a heavy or light wetsuit so I have some sorting to do.

My biggest challenge at the moment are the tanks which hang in front too much. I've tried tucking the valves under the bungie, clipping the bungie to the neck ring and I am going to try Lamar's method next I think.

Here's how I am routing my SPG's (this week). It may change as the tanks migrate backwards but for now it keeps things neat.



The point is; things change and what I thought I wanted initially isn't what I want now with some experience in my local conditions. After a season though, I am getting closer to (my) ideal.

 

[billgraham]

Here's my take: Those who know me see me diving the OG OC sidemount rig we made years ago, the reason is that I haven't found anything I like as much. I've dove the Nomad and it's a good rig but it needs modification and I don't like the shoulder trim weights. The JT isn't much of an improvement because of the shape of the wing. The Razor looks like great fun for wetsuits and aluminum tanks but it's not well suited for dry suits and steel tanks. The Armadillo is a nice rig but it didn't really suit my body type. I dove Edd's Hollis and liked it, and my friend recently gave me an SMS 100 that's been Cave Adventurized. I did a test dive with it in JB to get the bungees right and I do like it, it'll just take a little getting used to the new doorhandle location and the little pull dump. The cam bands that Hollis provides are not so great, I like the metal Dive Rite ones better. I usually make up doubled up thick bungee loops on the buckles to hold the clips, I like having a bit of give in them. Most people like the cave line leashes--they work fine too. I prefer big bolt snaps to butterfly clips but that's personal preference. The modifications Edd does to the SMS are pretty significant and it's worth buying one from Cave Adventurers if you are going that route.

On the reg/hose routing questions, again, I'm a bit of a dinosaur. I use Poseidon Odins because they are unidirectional and that solves all your hose routing issues. They are also dependable and impossible to overbreathe. I use the really short inflator hose on the left side, pointing up. The little HOG gauges are light and small yet pretty easy to read. As someone else said, if you tip the regs up on an angle, the gauges will fall into your chest. I've been trying a couple of the Phantom braided hoses for the short HP hoses and inflators. I haven't had any trouble with them but I'm not sure about using it for a reg hose. The Edd tip is to bungee the inflator to your chest strap, run the short hose under your shoulder strap and under the chest strap and it holds the inflator in the right spot. I put the long hose (7 foot) on the right side, bungeed to my tank (on the inside) using tire tube. When we first started sidemount diving, our theory was that you'd just pass off a tank to the OOA diver but that doesn't work so well with steel tanks in small silty cave -- go ahead and try it! I don't have to put any hoses behind my head because of the Odins, but I've used Edd's HOG setup with the right angle fitting and that works fine too. Good luck!

 

[Aquabot]

Here's my take: Those who know me see me diving the OG OC sidemount rig we made years ago, the reason is that I haven't found anything I like as much. I've dove the Nomad and it's a good rig but it needs modification and I don't like the shoulder trim weights. The JT isn't much of an improvement because of the shape of the wing. The Razor looks like great fun for wetsuits and aluminum tanks but it's not well suited for dry suits and steel tanks. The Armadillo is a nice rig but it didn't really suit my body type. I dove Edd's Hollis and liked it, and my friend recently gave me an SMS 100 that's been Cave Adventurized. I did a test dive with it in JB to get the bungees right and I do like it, it'll just take a little getting used to the new doorhandle location and the little pull dump. The cam bands that Hollis provides are not so great, I like the metal Dive Rite ones better. I usually make up doubled up thick bungee loops on the buckles to hold the clips, I like having a bit of give in them. Most people like the cave line leashes--they work fine too. I prefer big bolt snaps to butterfly clips but that's personal preference. The modifications Edd does to the SMS are pretty significant and it's worth buying one from Cave Adventurers if you are going that route.

On the reg/hose routing questions, again, I'm a bit of a dinosaur. I use Poseidon Odins because they are unidirectional and that solves all your hose routing issues. They are also dependable and impossible to overbreathe. I use the really short inflator hose on the left side, pointing up. The little HOG gauges are light and small yet pretty easy to read. As someone else said, if you tip the regs up on an angle, the gauges will fall into your chest. I've been trying a couple of the Phantom braided hoses for the short HP hoses and inflators. I haven't had any trouble with them but I'm not sure about using it for a reg hose. The Edd tip is to bungee the inflator to your chest strap, run the short hose under your shoulder strap and under the chest strap and it holds the inflator in the right spot. I put the long hose (7 foot) on the right side, bungeed to my tank (on the inside) using tire tube. When we first started sidemount diving, our theory was that you'd just pass off a tank to the OOA diver but that doesn't work so well with steel tanks in small silty cave -- go ahead and try it! I don't have to put any hoses behind my head because of the Odins, but I've used Edd's HOG setup with the right angle fitting and that works fine too. Good luck!

Hey thanks for your lengthy reply, it's chalk full of some good info. You mentioned using tire tube to bungee hose to the tanks, were you doing this on aluminum tank? If so what size tubes were you using?

 

[billgraham]

Hey thanks for your lengthy reply, it's chalk full of some good info. You mentioned using tire tube to bungee hose to the tanks, were you doing this on aluminum tank? If so what size tubes were you using?

I'll have to measure a slice. We got a couple of truck tire tubes from an auto parts place and cut them up into 1-2 inch slices, I still have a pile of them.

 

[DaleC]

If you don't have the right sized car tube you can just cut a strip from a bicycle tube, wrap it around and tie it off with a knot. I like this better as it gives something to pull open the loop with when using thicker gloves. Bare hands may be different but it's hard getting under a flush laying tube.

 

[Aquabot]

If you don't have the right sized car tube you can just cut a strip from a bicycle tube, wrap it around and tie it off with a knot. I like this better as it gives something to pull open the loop with when using thicker gloves. Bare hands may be different but it's hard getting under a flush laying tube.

That's not a bad idea actually, think ill go pick up a tube tonight and give that a try. You don't have any issues with the knot coming undone?

---------- Post added February 15th, 2013 at 07:33 PM ----------

Went out bought the tubes, cut them up, put them on the tanks and what do ya know....they work like a charm! Thanks DaleC for that little pearl of info. They actually work better than I expected lol.