horizontal ascents

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

When more than one medium of insulation is used, only one of them will control the rate of heat transfer, which is what truly determines whether you feel cold or not. For example a steel bar next to a piece of rubber garden hose. At ambient conditions, the steel will feel colder because it transfers the heat faster than the garden hose.

In the experiment, the suit was controlling the rate of heat transfer rather than the gas in the suit. If they were to have used a shell type of suit, that factor would be eliminated and more valuable data could be gained.

As to the subjective data, or diver's sensations, my complaint is that, even though the divers did not know which gas was in the suit, they did know that they were trying to determine whether argon is more effective than air and could be predisposed to believe that it isn't, therefore they would, knowingly or not, be inclined to not sense a difference, in which case it wouldn't matter which gas was in the suit or whether the experiment was single or double blind.

Even so, my point was simply that, due to the chemical and physical characteristics of air and argon, argon can be seen to transfer heat slower than air. A monatomic gas only moves in three dimensions. Diatomic gasses, like nitrogen and oxygen also have the spin of each atom in relation to the other to aid it in tranfsferring heat. So, Argon is chemically and physically a better insulator and no one had to have anything inserted into any bodily orifice.:D

Whether there is enough difference to make the added expense and possible inconvienience of trying to find a supplier of argon if your shop doesn't offer it is up to the diver.
 
Starboard Tack:
When more than one medium of insulation is used, only one of them will control the rate of heat transfer, which is what truly determines whether you feel cold or not. For example a steel bar next to a piece of rubber garden hose. At ambient conditions, the steel will feel colder because it transfers the heat faster than the garden hose.
You’re still missing the point. The suits on all divers were identical and transferred heat away from the divers at the same rate. The insulating gas inside the suits was different, yet the divers cooled at the same rate. There is only one conclusion that can be reached … there is no empirical difference observed between argon and air.
 
Well, one thing here that isn't mentioned is if the exposure suit came into contact with the body.

The measurement of the insulation ability of two gasses could be determined, accurately, if the body were completely isolated from the exposure suit in order to prevent any transfer of heat from the body directly through the suit. That is, the body should be suspended within the exposure suit with the gas being tested completely surrounding the subjects body with no contact from the encapsulating suit.

If your body is in contact with the suit, then the gas, for all intents and purposes, is not providing any insulation.

Just rambling thoughts . . .

the K
 
Thalassamania:
You’re still missing the point. The suits on all divers were identical and transferred heat away from the divers at the same rate. The insulating gas inside the suits was different, yet the divers cooled at the same rate. There is only one conclusion that can be reached … there is no empirical difference observed between argon and air.

with a TLS350 and 400g thinsulate it is almost entirely the gas trapped in the thinsulate which is providing the insulation and a 10% difference in insulation there will result in a 10% difference in heat transfer. if you've got neoprene over fleece probably 1/2 of the insulation will be in the neoprene material, and 10% bump in the insulation of the fleece will only be 5% difference in heat transfer. the neoprene drysuit makes it more difficult to measure any change due to the argon.
 
lamont:
with a TLS350 and 400g thinsulate it is almost entirely the gas trapped in the thinsulate which is providing the insulation and a 10% difference in insulation there will result in a 10% difference in heat transfer. if you've got neoprene over fleece probably 1/2 of the insulation will be in the neoprene material, and 10% bump in the insulation of the fleece will only be 5% difference in heat transfer. the neoprene drysuit makes it more difficult to measure any change due to the argon.
We're not disagreeing there, but that 5% should still show up. Ideally we should run those test with many more trials and various suit/underwear combinations. I'm amazed that the folks at Niantic or NMRI haven't done so already.
 
Despite that the data could be argued invalid due to neoprene drysuits and inferior undergarments, the possible benefits of argon would have been rejected anyway.

The Norwegian Royal Navy has practical and logistical concerns, which out weigh the benefits of argon use. They can’t produce the gas on site, there’s the possible hazard of mixing argon with breathing gasses, and they have economic reasons for discarding the use of argon. The study was handicaped from its inception.

The study only proves that argon is not practical for the Norwegian Royal Navy with the exposure suits they used, nothing more.

I certainly wouldn’t reject the use of argon as a suit inflation/insulating gas based on the Norwegian study.

Chris
 
I was ending a dive today at about 10 meters of water with a group and not far from me was another group. One guy, the divemaster aparrently, was from the gear config and his position was probably DIR trained. He was exiting as well with his group, he was admirable, perfect horizontal trim, slightly back his group so he gets to see everyone, he was ascending in a very steady horizontal position like a video clip out of 5thD. Then suddenly.. BOINK! he hits his head on an outrigger of a parked boat.. hehehe.. I saw his group kinda laughing at him..

Makes me wonder here in the Philippines where we do 99% open water dives, is a horizontal ascent a safe way to ascend considering boat men here are oblivious to dive flags or SMB's.
 
Axua:
I was ending a dive today at about 10 meters of water with a group and not far from me was another group. One guy, the divemaster aparrently, was from the gear config and his position was probably DIR trained. He was exiting as well with his group, he was admirable, perfect horizontal trim, slightly back his group so he gets to see everyone, he was ascending in a very steady horizontal position like a video clip out of 5thD. Then suddenly.. BOINK! he hits his head on an outrigger of a parked boat.. hehehe.. I saw his group kinda laughing at him..

Makes me wonder here in the Philippines where we do 99% open water dives, is a horizontal ascent a safe way to ascend considering boat men here are oblivious to dive flags or SMB's.

Environmental awareness also includes the surface... This is easily done by periodically rolling a little to the side to see the surface as you horizontally ascend...
It sounds like the diver you mentioned forgot that important part... :D

Anders
 
If I were that diver, I'd have a long debrief with the buddy who was supposed to be watching the space over my head.
 
TSandM:
If I were that diver, I'd have a long debrief with the buddy who was supposed to be watching the space over my head.

He should of deployed an SMB.

Edit: Nevermind, I just read the boat was anchored. He should of been more aware.
 
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

Back
Top Bottom