How those idiots (us) run out of air

[phoenix31tt]

How do you evaluate in water abilities without being IN THE WATER, not to mention he did have issues on first decent at which time he (and I suppose the guide) surfaced and fixed the issue then back down...In this specific incident I see no fault with the guide..


however as a general statement you have some very points in terms of dealing with problems in the shallows... But still this isn't always possible for instance where I dive if you stay in the shallows to long your likely to get swept of the site or into some rocks... And then as you say there are some horrible guides that dont do anything but tow a flag


But at the end of the day, sometimes guides/shops are placed in tough positions as the only evaluation you can do before a dive is based on certification level, number of dives and last time the person dived... Is there more you can do to appraise skill level without getting in the water?

 

[billt4sf]

Regarding the video of the GUE OW class that beano goes on and on about . . . HERE is that video. Beano objects to the occasional instability of the divers -- you can see them briefly lose their balance and regain it. According to her, if the instructor talked less and did some kind of kinesthetic teaching, the students wouldn't wobble. My experience from teaching in Puget Sound is that these guys are rock stars for students doing their OW dives in dry suits. Have a look and see what you think, and how those students compare with what you see coming out of typical open water classes.

Emily and I watched that video last night, after which Emily said "Oh, we have to take that class". I sent a msg to Beto and his reply indicated that, since we already have some scuba skills, the Fundies or the primer would be more appropriate. So, we'll see. I would really love to take such a class, I think it would help us alot.

One thing I am wondering is whether a constant horizontal position is going to require the head often up (to look forward), and whether that is going to be comfortable for me. I have some neck problems. I'll try to watch what I do in dives this week. We are usually pretty horizontal (or nearly so) but I think that GUE is going to really emphasize that.

 

[supergaijin]

How do you evaluate in water abilities without being IN THE WATER

,
Logbooks, talking about past experiences, watching them set equipment- not as good as getting wet but there are often subtle clues.

dealing with problems in the shallows... But still this isn't always possible for instance where I dive if you stay in the shallows too long your likely to get swept of the site or into some rocks

Operators shouldn't take 'unknown' divers to high current sites before understanding whether they're competent to deal with the potential conditions.

But at the end of the day, sometimes guides/shops are placed in tough positions as the only evaluation you can do before a dive is based on certification level, number of dives and last time the person dived

Site consideration is paramount. A 'check out' dive is good for everyone. Benign conditions. The guest sees the operation, entry/exit procedures etc. that are peculiar to the operator/area. Operator gets to see the diver in action. Only if they 'prove' themselves capable should they be given access to the sites that are more demanding in terms of quick descents, currents etc. There may be disapoointments but actingly prudently should be given more importance.

Not everyone should be diving in demanding conditions (which are often the most spectacular). Only the operator can have the final decision. If profit comes before prudence, accidents are the result... not every time, but even one accident caused by $$ is one too many.

 

[danvolker]

Emily and I watched that video last night, after which Emily said "Oh, we have to take that class". I sent a msg to Beto and his reply indicated that, since we already have some scuba skills, the Fundies or the primer would be more appropriate. So, we'll see. I would really love to take such a class, I think it would help us alot.

One thing I am wondering is whether a constant horizontal position is going to require the head often up (to look forward), and whether that is going to be comfortable for me. I have some neck problems. I'll try to watch what I do in dives this week. We are usually pretty horizontal (or nearly so) but I think that GUE is going to really emphasize that.

The horizontal position does have your head up, like a turtle.
You can use this orientation when you are trying to swim someplace fast or against a current, and then rest your neck in a more vertical position for a while after....for you guys, the real value would be the ability to be able to dive like this in the moments or minutes when it is critical....While GUE's like to do an entire dive flat horizontal, this is not the "take-away" you need from this.....when you are just floating in the water column on an open water dive over a reef, it is not really relevent to your interests as a recreational diver with a neck problem.....On the other hand, when you do an easy penetration into a shipwreck or when you find some immense and delicate coral you want to get up close and personal with, this horizontal trim and buoyancy skill set of GUE would be life changing.

 

[billt4sf]

,
Logbooks, talking about past experiences, watching them set equipment- not as good as getting wet but there are often subtle clues.


Operators shouldn't take 'unknown' divers to high current sites before understanding whether they're competent to deal with the potential conditions.




Site consideration is paramount. A 'check out' dive is good for everyone. Benign conditions. The guest sees the operation, entry/exit procedures etc. that are peculiar to the operator/area. Operator gets to see the diver in action. Only if they 'prove' themselves capable should they be given access to the sites that are more demanding in terms of quick descents, currents etc. There may be disappointments but actingly prudently should be given more importance.

Not everyone should be diving in demanding conditions (which are often the most spectacular). Only the operator can have the final decision. If profit comes before prudence, accidents are the result... not every time, but even one accident caused by $$ is one too many.

All this is great, but the best simple thing the operator could do is talk to the client. Many of us "idiots" would like to tell an operator what we're comfortable with, and what we are not comfortable with. Yes, some will overestimate their capabilities (or not understand their limitations) but I'll wager that most will not.

- Bill

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Checkout dives are useful if they're done in a manner that properly evaluates a diver's skill level. If they're done as mine was in Roatan ... where all they wanted to see was me clearing a mask and recovering a regulator while planted on my knees (and insisting on my being planted on my knees) ... then they're pointless.

Even if a dive op doesn't require a checkout dive, divers who are relatively inexperienced ... or even more experienced divers who haven't been diving in a while, or are unfamiliar with the environment in which they're diving, or are using unfamiliar equipment ... would be wise to do a checkout dive in relatively benign conditions prior to putting themselves into a more challenging situation. This isn't necessarily something you should wait for the dive op to insist on ... it's a good practice for any prudent diver.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[phoenix31tt]

@supergaijin you aldo have to consider the feasibility of a operation performing detailed discussions with every diver and examining everyone's gear etc.. Sure they can do general observations but most of the time these observations are made when they are already on the site...

In Tobago there aren't much none drift sites.. Not that all the sites are advanced but take for instance if I sign up for a 6 day trip, but everyday there are new divers, will I have to do the one super easy site in Tobago at least once a day?...

sometimes its just not feasible to do checkouts with everybody on the easiest sites... But yes I do agree that site selection based on the divers experience is important.. But determining that experience is not as simple... So there has to be some kind of balance/compromise while still being safe

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I have been to a few sites where they drop the ones on the checkout dive first... drop the more experienced ones next... go back to pick up the first group then the second. Unfortunately not all sites are close enough to allow that.

 

[supergaijin]

It's definitely not easy as you say for a bunch of reasons. Jude and I operate only one boat for now and we are the only staff (for now) and during our first high season it was sometimes a real juggle to ensure that our experienced guests were happy as well as our beginners. I will not put divers in the channels who I feel are not up to the task. If that means disappointing the experienced divers for one day, so be it- there's always tomorrow.

Depth is easy to control but currents are trickier to predict. The channels in Laamu Atoll can rip... or be completely placid. Tide, wind+direction + oceanic current+direction all play a part. Usually beginners can start and end their dive along the outer wall. It is up to the guide to judge correctly the distance to the channel entrance (while underwater) and act accordingly. This is where the 'professionals' set themselves apart- I hope one day to pay ourselves accordingly

Check dives don't need to mean 'skills on the knees'. In NZ we never made 'check dives'. However the first dive should be a chilled dive. Afternoons are perfect for this. Unfortunately some travelers arrive too late the first day to participate and want to dive the next morning. A bit of planning (read: breaking your mind) can normally find a way around this to please the majority.

You can please some of the people some of the time....

 

[TSandM]

I remember reading, not too long ago, a discussion where a whole bunch of folks were saying that they'd be thoroughly annoyed if they paid to go someplace exotic to dive and had to do their first dive in a "nothing" site for purposes of dive operator evaluation of their skills. It's a shame that people are like that. When I go somewhere new, I don't mind at all a shallow, undemanding first dive -- it gives me a chance to make sure my weighting is right for that water, and that all my gear is working and nothing has suffered in transport. It also gets ME into shape and focus. And honestly, if a dive operator is given the information to allow them to match my skills with their sites, I'm much more likely to have a splendid experience with them. If I'm not up to handling sheer walls with no bottom, or strong currents, I certainly don't want somebody throwing me in the water to deal with those things.