how to handle panicky divers in group

[rx7diver]

Apparently I went through the wrong OW course. All we had to do was...

reeftankdiver,

The reality is, some open water courses are more thorough than others. Unfortunately, people considering taking an OW course often aren't aware of the differences between OW courses and/or don't have access to a variety of different courses. I lucked into my particular course; it was the (only) course being offered at the university I was attending as a graduate student. It was only after I began taking my course did I learn that not everyone's OW course was as thorough. And it was only much later that I learned of other OW courses (e.g., the old LA County open water course) that apparently are/were at least as thorough.

Other considerations (in addition to being aware of course differences) include availability of, access to, available time, cost, and personal inclination and goals.

Safe Diving,

rx7diver

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

a (OOA) panicky diver is the most dangerous thing you can encounter on a dive, much worse than a shark, electric eel etc.

when you look at couses like the padi OW, is there anything there that would weed out a diver who is likely to not follow emergency procedures & is likely to create a hazard for his instructor/fellow students during the 1st open water dives?

maybe there should be a test like that done for military helitcopter pilots where they dunk them inside a mock cockpit strapped in their flight chair in the dark?

The best way to avoid divers going OOA is to train them to LOOK AT THEIR PRESSURE GAUGE ONCE IN A WHILE!!
That's all it takes. They should be paying attention anyway.
As far as PADI or any other agency spending one extra minute on training, not likely. If an individual instructor chooses to spend some extra time with students to make sure they get it, I suppose it's a bonus, but that's not the norm and goes beyond the book. It's a miracle we even get what we get now.
What it boils down to is the student needs to maintain and build their own skills once they pass OW and AOW. Most people don't do that, they just dive and forget about any skills training they had and hope that they never have any problems.
That's all fine if nothing goes wrong, but when stuff goes wrong is when SHTF if they are unpracticed.

As far as any form of harrassment training - that will never happen in our current training climate. They even dropped it from the SSU NAUI semester course years ago because of liability.
The recreational diving world is not the military and never will be.

In all reality and knowing realistically what they could and would consider adding to the current training schedule would be a few more times of mask-off skills, reg clearing, and air shares. The way it is now they just have to demontrate is once and they pass. They should have to do it a half dozen times both in the pool and in open water. It wouldn't really add much more time (if any) and would at least establish a pattern and test of consistency with each student.
Many are getting away with a one hit wonder by lucking out and pulling off a difficult skill once while they are on their best behavior. Let's see if they could do it 5 or 6 times in a row, that would be huge.

 

[boulderjohn]

The best way to avoid divers going OOA is to train them to LOOK AT THEIR PRESSURE GAUGE ONCE IN A WHILE!!
That's all it takes. They should be paying attention anyway.
As far as PADI or any other agency spending one extra minute on training, not likely. If an individual instructor chooses to spend some extra time with students to make sure they get it, I suppose it's a bonus, but that's not the norm and goes beyond the book. It's a miracle we even get what we get now.

The new PADI standards emphasize this. Students are supposed to be taught to pool at their gauges so frequently that when the instructor asks them during a pool session how much air they have, they must be able to respond with a reasonably close estimate without looking at their gauges.

 

[Redshift]

In all reality and knowing realistically what they could and would consider adding to the current training schedule would be a few more times of mask-off skills, reg clearing, and air shares. The way it is now they just have to demontrate is once and they pass. They should have to do it a half dozen times both in the pool and in open water. It wouldn't really add much more time (if any) and would at least establish a pattern and test of consistency with each student.
Many are getting away with a one hit wonder by lucking out and pulling off a difficult skill once while they are on their best behavior. Let's see if they could do it 5 or 6 times in a row, that would be huge.

I see many people agreeing that the it's the instructor that counts and that instructors should be thorough, give a good course and make students work. I see divers saying that many courses are simplistic and not enough time is spend with exercises, that some exercises are done, like you said, once and that ticks the box, instead of proficiency having to be demonstrated consistently.
Yet, where do most divers end up being instructor for? PADI. The agency that brought down standards and has them fixed so that an instructor cannot require more from a student.

 

[Diver0001]

a (OOA) panicky diver is the most dangerous thing you can encounter on a dive, much worse than a shark, electric eel etc.

when you look at couses like the padi OW, is there anything there that would weed out a diver who is likely to not follow emergency procedures & is likely to create a hazard for his instructor/fellow students during the 1st open water dives?

maybe there should be a test like that done for military helitcopter pilots where they dunk them inside a mock cockpit strapped in their flight chair in the dark?

There is nothing in the OW course designed to raise the stress bar to the breaking point.

The way I see it is this. There are really three things to consider

1) training will get you so far. When a diver goes OOA it turns out (this has actually been studied) that he majority of them recall their training and apply it. So spending time on making sure that these kinds of skills are mastered to a decent level of proficiency in the OW course is important

2) prevention is better than cure. There are other elements of the OW course that are intended to avoid the diver getting in this position to begin with. Watching the SPG is important, but planning, communication, comfort and experience are also elements of "prevention is better than cure" that cannot be ignored.

3) everyone has a breaking point. regardless of whether or not the diver is perfectly trained or whatever, I believe that everyone has a breaking point. A strategy for avoiding getting to that point is important. That's what I call my "ABC" principle, which is an integrated approach to getting the genie back in the bottle once things are going wrong. It's a way of setting priorities so the right things are getting done in the right order so you don't get overwhelmed.

R..

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

There is nothing in the OW course designed to raise the stress bar to the breaking point.

The way I see it is this. There are really three things to consider

1) training will get you so far. When a diver goes OOA it turns out (this has actually been studied) that he majority of them recall their training and apply it. So spending time on making sure that these kinds of skills are mastered to a decent level of proficiency in the OW course is important

2) prevention is better than cure. There are other elements of the OW course that are intended to avoid the diver getting in this position to begin with. Watching the SPG is important, but planning, communication, comfort and experience are also elements of "prevention is better than cure" that cannot be ignored.

3) everyone has a breaking point. regardless of whether or not the diver is perfectly trained or whatever, I believe that everyone has a breaking point. A strategy for avoiding getting to that point is important. That's what I call my "ABC" principle, which is an integrated approach to getting the genie back in the bottle once things are going wrong. It's a way of setting priorities so the right things are getting done in the right order so you don't get overwhelmed.

R..

One of the problems I see is divers consistently diving beyond their capabilities. Even a simple dive to 75 or 100 feet, how many people are really trained to deal with a sudden incident like startling large marine life causing lets say a dislodged mask and/or a blow to the head and maybe a lost reg. How many people would get sent straight to the surface from something like that? Then in California there's the annoyed Sea Lion that can cause all sorts of mayhem underwater.
100 feet is actually a long way down if something goes wrong but people do it all the time. Heck, even 50 feet is a long way down if something goes wrong and panic sets in.
Then there are the trust me dives where a DM or leader assures peope they can do the planned dive and they'll be taken care of, even if it's a little out of their training or comfort zone. The only one that can take care of you is you when push comes to shove.

I was told (and I hope like hell it's not true) that PADI's training now for OW doesn't teach people to be independant divers that can plan and execute an independent dive on their own with a buddy. They train OW students so they can do a DM lead dive. My LDS told me that. I would like to know if this is a universal policy or if it's a regional policy, or if it's even true at all. I searched PADI's website but saw no information about any of this or what they are actually trained to do these days.

If it's true, that to me doesn't work at all because any leader, I don't care who they are, isn't necessarily going to be able to get things under control and "save" somebody if there are weak skills with the panicked diver to start with.

I think these agencies are just trying to get bodies in there to keep cash flow going any way they can.

 

[Hawkwood]

...
I was told (and I hope like hell it's not true) that PADI's training now for OW doesn't teach people to be independant divers that can plan and execute an independent dive on their own with a buddy. They train OW students so they can do a DM lead dive. ...

You were told wrong.

Students plan and execute dive in the pool for Confined Water Dive 5 that must include at least three skills of their own choosing, in addition to skills the Instructor may throw at them. They must plan the entry, time, pressures, actions, ascent, and exit appropriate to the entry. They must do this with an awareness of the the "sensitive" nature of the bottom.

They must also do the same thing in Open Water Dive 4. In fact that is their entire goal on Dive 4 - planned and executed dive with a buddy. Before you throw another one out, yes it must be done maintaing neutral buoyancy.

 

[Diver0001]

My LDS told me that.

They lied.

I wonder why would they do that.

R..

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Hawkwood and Diver0001,

Thanks for clarifying that.
I'm going to have a word with the employee at the dive shop for spewing then since it is bunk. Maybe even let PADI know since it is coming from a PADI shop, What do you think? Worth my trouble?
It's been a long time since I've done any DM work or assisted with any classes so I'm out of the loop on current training.
It's good to know that it hasn't stooped to that level, that would really be depressing.
Well, at least I feel better now.

 

[pdhenry]

The PADI Scuba Diver course qualifies a diver to dive under the supervision of a DM/Instructor to 40 feet and to obtain air fills; perhaps there was confusion or mis-communication.

http://www.padi.com/scuba-diving/padi-courses/course-catalog/padi-scuba-diver/