Human rights to dolphins?

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Current practice for non-religious slaughter in Denmark, as I understand it, is to stun the animal (render it unconscious) before killing it. Both the Jewish and Muslim practice for slaughter do not permit stunning, although they do stress the quick, humane bloodletting. So that's what the ruling is apparently based on - the lack of stunning.

I really don't think that it's an anti-semitic or anti-muslim thing...

Denmark bans kosher and halal slaughter as minister says ?animal rights come before religion? - Europe - World - The Independent

As usual, lots of the commenters completely miss the point here with reference to giraffe-gate (in which stunning was used).
 
Agreed. The underlying motivation makes a difference to acceptability, if it is ever declared. Was animal welfare their only concern when passing these laws. Does it matter to activists if achieves the same result?

The legal definition in the US states that the practice is humane. I have a friend from Saudi Arabia who agrees and describes their Islamic method as follows:

The animal must be properly cared for and soothed before slaughter. The knife must not be shown to the animal. The act must not be witnessed by other animals. The cut must be swift and precise, with blood letting and death following quickly.

It is also apparently stated that the animal should be conscious (which is a point of debate) and not stressed or distressed (for example, by a chase after wounding, because of a belief that the meat will taste bad if this is allowed to happen).

This friend also agrees that in reality, what actually happens is far from the intended (using the word 'horrific'). There is, apparently, covert video footage from the middle east showing the slaughterers deriving warped pleasure from this work.


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I don't see the "humane slaughtering of food animals" as being related or relevant.
I and most people on this board eat meat, and believe we have evolved with a biological need to eat meat. Each of us has an idea of what acceptable food animals are. Most of us are fine with eating animals that are not aware of their own existence....the cows, the chickens....Although with pigs, which could arguably be shown as smarter than dogs, this gets to be an issue here, as they are approaching a level of self awareness....

Further up the scale you have populations of jungle people--tribes, that live outside of civilization and it's rules....but still they are totally SELF AWARE, and they care for their families deeply. Should the Japanese be allowed to eat people from some Amazon tribes, or other areas where no rights of civilization are in place? And how would these tribal people differ from dolphin? Based on IQ's, and family interaction, self awareness, and willingness to sacrifice for others in your family, the dolphin may we be the equals or superiors to some humans in jungle tribes.
The answer can't be the prohibition of cannibalism, as this has more to do with sensibilities, cultural values, and bacterial or viral complications of cannibalism...The answer has to be about what makes the tribal people more special than the dolphins, given equivalent IQ's, complex language, social systems, self awareness, and caring for family and tribe.

The typical answer here comes from religious nonsense that Man is in god's image, and all the animals are food.
This was conveniently written by men, and was entirely fictional when conceived.
 
I don't see the "humane slaughtering of food animals" as being related or relevant.
I and most people on this board eat meat, and believe we have evolved with a biological need to eat meat. Each of us has an idea of what acceptable food animals are. Most of us are fine with eating animals that are not aware of their own existence....the cows, the chickens....Although with pigs, which could arguably be shown as smarter than dogs, this gets to be an issue here, as they are approaching a level of self awareness....

Further up the scale you have populations of jungle people--tribes, that live outside of civilization and it's rules....but still they are totally SELF AWARE, and they care for their families deeply. Should the Japanese be allowed to eat people from some Amazon tribes, or other areas where no rights of civilization are in place? And how would these tribal people differ from dolphin? Based on IQ's, and family interaction, self awareness, and willingness to sacrifice for others in your family, the dolphin may we be the equals or superiors to some humans in jungle tribes.
The answer can't be the prohibition of cannibalism, as this has more to do with sensibilities, cultural values, and bacterial or viral complications of cannibalism...The answer has to be about what makes the tribal people more special than the dolphins, given equivalent IQ's, complex language, social systems, self awareness, and caring for family and tribe.

The typical answer here comes from religious nonsense that Man is in god's image, and all the animals are food.
This was conveniently written by men, and was entirely fictional when conceived.

What makes them different is their humanity. They are born with inalienable rights. Dolphins are animals plain and simple and are food for some animals and humans. Until they can declare their humanity they are animals are should be treated that way, which is better than they are being treated now. Think about that what you posted that XXX was written by humans. Just what profound wisdoms have dolphins recorded for prosperity? None because they are animals.
 
What makes them different is their humanity. They are born with inalienable rights.
No...Humans have gone to war a few times for rights that you could call inalienable rights...rights which did not exist for the first 50,000 years of man's existence, and not for 2000 year before Christ to 1700 years after it...except sporadically for a few years at a time.

War or it's threat is what grants rights...historically.

Dolphins are animals plain and simple and are food for some animals and humans. Until they can declare their humanity they are animals are should be treated that way, which is better than they are being treated now.
There are a great many tribes of humans still living in the world today, that would be unable to declare their "humanity" or self awareness to you--due to language barriers, and due also to many human tribes not being able to write or read. A declaration in writing, is NOT relevant to the right to life of jungle tribes people...or to dolphin pods...

For all you know..dolphins may have songs which herald those that came before them, in a history they tell by song....as you may recall this sort of thing in the history of Norse Tribes of man....or Greek. The concept of having scribes put this down on paper, came hundreds or thousands of years after there was a long standing tradition of telling the stories of the past.
We know dolphins teach other dolphins, and share ideas...We know they possess a complex language they speak many times faster than our own( can relay complex thoughts much faster than we can), and that they have their own alphabet.

For all we know, dolphins may have a complex history they pass on to all pod members, via song or equivalent storytelling.
Surely you won't suggest that there was no such thing as a human, prior to written language??? Or that tribal people today without written language are appropriate targets for Japanese eating habits?


Think about that what you posted that XXX was written by humans. Just what profound wisdoms have dolphins recorded for prosperity? None because they are animals.

We pass on information quite slowly by verbal means....and have issues in mass dissemination. If YOU could tell the complex story of the Iliad and the Odyssey ....what had actually been an Oral tradition for many centuries...if you could do this entire story orally in 5 minutes, and the alternative of reading it in a book would take 8 hours.....which would be the higher level process? My point ( granted with exaggeration), is that our oral communication may be so defective and slow, that we were forced to develop a written language. The dolphin languge, which I understand to run at about 8 to 10 times the speed ours does, may also have it's own version of the story telling need--being some form of dolphin song that eclipses even normal dolphin speed of communication....we just don't know...and people like yourself apparently would not care.....And please read this again....if in fact, it was discovered that dolphins do pass on their histories with songs the equivalent of the Iliad and the Odyssey, in minutes compared to our days....then would you consider that maybe Dolphins should be treated differently than food animals?
 
No...Humans have gone to war a few times for rights that you could call inalienable rights...rights which did not exist for the first 50,000 years of man's existence, and not for 2000 year before Christ to 1700 years after it...except sporadically for a few years at a time.

War or it's threat is what grants rights...historically.


There are a great many tribes of humans still living in the world today, that would be unable to declare their "humanity" or self awareness to you--due to language barriers, and due also to many human tribes not being able to write or read. A declaration in writing, is NOT relevant to the right to life of jungle tribes people...or to dolphin pods...

For all you know..dolphins may have songs which herald those that came before them, in a history they tell by song....as you may recall this sort of thing in the history of Norse Tribes of man....or Greek. The concept of having scribes put this down on paper, came hundreds or thousands of years after there was a long standing tradition of telling the stories of the past.
We know dolphins teach other dolphins, and share ideas...We know they possess a complex language they speak many times faster than our own( can relay complex thoughts much faster than we can), and that they have their own alphabet.

For all we know, dolphins may have a complex history they pass on to all pod members, via song or equivalent storytelling.
Surely you won't suggest that there was no such thing as a human, prior to written language??? Or that tribal people today without written language are appropriate targets for Japanese eating habits?




We pass on information quite slowly by verbal means....and have issues in mass dissemination. If YOU could tell the complex story of the Iliad and the Odyssey ....what had actually been an Oral tradition for many centuries...if you could do this entire story orally in 5 minutes, and the alternative of reading it in a book would take 8 hours.....which would be the higher level process? My point ( granted with exaggeration), is that our oral communication may be so defective and slow, that we were forced to develop a written language. The dolphin languge, which I understand to run at about 8 to 10 times the speed ours does, may also have it's own version of the story telling need--being some form of dolphin song that eclipses even normal dolphin speed of communication....we just don't know...and people like yourself apparently would not care.....And please read this again....if in fact, it was discovered that dolphins do pass on their histories with songs the equivalent of the Iliad and the Odyssey, in minutes compared to our days....then would you consider that maybe Dolphins should be treated differently than food animals?


Force of arms is what secures rights. Rights are inherent and cannot be granted, those are privileges not rights.
Like driving a car is a privilege, owning a firearm is a right, because as a human it provides me with the means to protect myself, dolphins come equipped with a strong body and a blunt nose as well as a good set of teeth and no restraints on how they use them, society and morality puts restraints on how I use my firearm. Rights have responsibilities, which brings us back to animals not being able to respect the rights of others. We have that ability and when those among us choose not to respect our rights we have civilized systems to redress those violations.

Humans have no need to declare their humanity, it is self-evident not so with dolphins, they don’t even have ID’s!
 
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Force of arms is what secures rights. Rights are inherent and cannot be granted, those are privileges not rights.
Like driving a car is a privilege, owning a firearm is a right, because as a human it provides me with the means to protect myself, dolphins come equipped with a strong body and a blunt nose as well as a good set of teeth and no restraints on how they use them, society and morality puts restraints on how I use my firearm. Rights have responsibilities, which brings us back to animals not being able to respect the rights of others. We have that ability and when those among us choose not to respect our rights we have civilized systems to redress those violations.

Humans have no need to declare their humanity, it is self-evident not so with dolphins, they don’t even have ID’s!
Well...you and I can tell everyone we have THE RIGHT to Bare Arms.....but Obama and his henchmen can tell us that the American Citizenry DO NOT HAVE THIS RIGHT.... ( and whoever follows Obama will do this -- no doubt...I am not picking on Obama...this is the way we leave a democracy and move toward a totalitarian regime...perhaps after a short bout with a Fascist/Socialist hybrid regime...This democracy to Totalitarian shift has happened hundreds of times in the last 5000 years, this evolution is nothing new.

You can think we have rights all you want....but these Rights are really just claims we make....claims that only exist when there is force to enforce them. They are mental constructs...they don't actually exist in any physical sense.

WE will make claims to RIGHTS that were never thought of 3000 years ago...And...1000 years from now, people may come up with RIGHTS we would be horrified by today....Obamacare as a "right", horrifies me ! :)

I have no doubt it is self-evident to you that you are a human...and that to a dolphin, it is equally self evident that they exist in a society, and that they have "rights"....and I am sure they have the equivalent of names for each other.
 
I have no doubt it is self-evident to you that you are a human...What I posted was that it would be self evident that the natives in the jungle you mentioned are human. Regardless of their language or lack of it, or how they live.

..and that to a dolphin, it is equally self evident that they exist in a society, and that they have "rights"....and I am sure they have the equivalent of names for each other.

Now you are mind reading dolphins? You're sounding a little nutty now.

We are in the process of protecting GW sharks here in the US. Should they have human rights? If all animals have human rights then they wouldn't be human rights anymore would they? Is everybody crazy?

Rights and liberty have to be fought for to be won and to be kept. We fight either at the ballot box, the battlefield or in the street but force in the end is the only way to secure liberty. Government is force as such it takes force to fight it.

As humans we get to proclaim our rights as we are the masters at the top of the food chain. There is nothing walking, flying or swimming that we can't subdue and have ownership over or kill outright. It is a great responsibility that some refuse to accept.
 
Humans are nothing special in the grand scheme of things. We are a lucky evolutionary accident. Because of our so called intelligence we developed an incredible capacity to destroy everything in a our wake with no regard to consequence.
 
Humans are nothing special in the grand scheme of things. We are a lucky evolutionary accident. Because of our so called intelligence we developed an incredible capacity to destroy everything in a our wake with no regard to consequence.

How pathetic. A self hating human.
 
If you think you HAVE to eat meat to survive you are stupid. There are so many other alternative ways to get the nutrients you THINK you are getting from meat.

---------- Post added February 20th, 2014 at 08:13 AM ----------

I will be back later, going to cracker barrel for a country fried chicken steak, awash brown casserole and sausage...
 
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