I NEED Your help! Can't decide!!

[WannaLaguna]

As an owner of an HC-7, I'd have to say that I'm less than satisfied with it as an underwater HDV camera. Search the site and you'll see my threads with the reasons why. It certainly introduces some characteristics I've never observed in my five previous Sony camcorders (all used within the same housing).

Thanks Dr.Bill I'll take a look through your previous threads.

 

[WannaLaguna]

For a land based camera, I would choose the HV20 between these two. Actually, I DID choose the HV20 over the HC7 for the reasons stated above (in no small part was the fact that I HATE being forced into buying needed accessories as proprietary, such as an external mic, are you listening Sony????) but again, that was for land with no consideration of using it underwater, where proprietary accessories may not be needed.

There are several housing choices available now for the HV20, including the Ikelite and the Equinox mentioned above. However, the HV20 does not have a LANC, if that makes a difference in your housing choice.

You should be able to edit 24p in most editing software that will handle HD. Check to see if a 24p preset is available for your software. As the 24p is stored in a 60i stream, it is captured the same way as the normal HD is. Freeware is now available for both Mac and PC for removing the 3:2 pulldown to get the true 24p.

The HC7 has a more solid feel to it, a complaint among HV20 owners. But other than that, I love the HV20. But You really can't go wrong with either camera.

BTW: I've read that the HC3 has better low light sensitivity than the HC7, so that may be another option.

Thanks DaFire, that is my BIGGEST pet peeve with Sony too...I REALLY like the Amphibico housings for the HC7 I was speaking to one of their reps today and they have NO plans of offering Canon housings.

The construction of the ike to the amphibico housing seem like night and day.

leaning back towards the HC7 and the amphibico housing...

Dive safe,

Jeff

 

[diversteve]

DOH! Well now I'm totally messed up again... leaning back towards the amphibico housing and the HC7...Although, I don't really have a problem with the reversed image...as long as the shot is composed properly, it shouldn't be an issue should it? Or is it...left is right and right is left....

In your humble opinion...which camera and housing would you get?

I don't think I'd mind the reversed image until it came to trying to use the LCD for panning. Because you'd instictively want to pan with the object that was moving. But I don't know since I've never really tried it. If you're using the viewfinder or just shooting over the top of the housing, there's no difference. But given that you can't add an external monitor w/o doing some custom work to the Ikelite, it's likely you would at times be using the LCD for framing since using the viewfinder with a mask is harder. Especially if you're panning on something going by fast.

I'd go for an HC-series with the EVO. But I'm biased. Here's my reasons why:

I'm only ever going to buy Sony cameras with LANC ports. And likely put them in electronic housings. For multiple reasons:

I like to maintain a firm grip on the housing's handles when I'm shooting. And I really like to push a button to zoom in and out while keeping the subject centered in the viewfinder. Most people who use mechanical housings say you get used to where the controls are located but you still have to take your hand off the handle. And if the housing is new, likely also have to hold it out in front of you to locate the control. With my EVO the buttons are right where you'd expect them to be. I also stop/start my camera often so having the trigger under your forefinger just works.

I've seen continous action footage shot with an Ikelite housing in a slight current and several times during the clip I could see a jiggle when the operator released a handle to push/move a control. I don't know if it's because the Ikelite is too heavy or too lite.
In all fairness, they had lights attached to the housing so that may've caused some of the problem.

I like to plug in two connectors (Lanc & Mic) seal the back and dive.

I also like to record sound. I shot Dolphins last April and you hear all the clicks/pops as they sonared us. Especially when one of them liked her reflection in my port. I don't remember hearing it while diving but it's on the tape.

I like a redundant depth rating to keep my $1000+ camera from getting wet. The Amphibico's 330' rating does that for me. I could theoretically exceed the Ikelite's rating and don't need to be worried about that just then.

I'm also a big fan of dual o-ringed metal boxes for my cameras. You can afford to be a little rougher with them if necessary in swells or bad surface conditions. I had a poly housing before I bought my EVO and there's a huge difference in the construction and durability. Price too of course... And nobody damages your EVO when they drop their housing on top of it in the rinse bucket. Even the front port is recessed to minimize damage.

I also like an alarm to go off indicating a leak. Especially in a non-clear housing. I don't want to have to peer into my Gates or Equinox housing to see if there's water inside. I turn my camera on before I put the housing in the water so it will go off if I don't have a good seal also. Might be able to save the camera that way on the surface. My pro photographer friend always says it's not if you'll have a leak, it's when.

Although if Gates ports had been cheaper, I might be shooting one now.

Things I wish my Amphibico had: MWB. I'd use it if I could. Since I'll never shoot with lights. I also wish the d&$@ thing was lighter since it rides in my carry-on.

I can't comment on the HV20 as I've never held one.

There is some discussion in the HC7 review on camcorderinfo.com about it's low light performance that you may want to read. Although with lights it's less of an issue.

I'll throw you another curve - seen the Seatools HC7 housing??? http://www.seatoolusa.com/hc7/index.php They also have an HC3 housing.

My best advice, do what I did. Call Mike Luzansky at H20PhotoPros. He spent at least a 1/2 hr. on the phone with me discussing all the options before I bought my EVO - from him...(818) 535-3251. Or PM him here on SB.

 

[PerroneFord]

I'd like to interject a question here if I could. I've shot video for quite some time, though not underwater. I've only done a couple of underwater filming sessions (with an Ike housing and a Canon miniDV cam) but in reading this thread, something came to mind.

What is the benefit of shooting 24p underwater? I certainly understand doing it if you plan to transfer to film. But why not shoot in the mode that offers the most light gathering and decimate later if you REALLY want to move to 24p. Very few people are going to be looking at videos on truly progressive dispays so you're going delivering to interlaced displays in most cases anyway.

For most of my filming, I've gone to shooting 30p because I like the look. It may not be as filmic as 24p, but I am not going to be doing any film transfers in the near future. And 30p works great when I create videos for the web. If I am running short on light, I shoot 60i.

I don't mean to question anyone's motivation for choosing the cameras they do, but I just wonder if we aren't jumping on the 24p thing for the wrong reasons sometimes. One thing it DOES do is allow for more runtime in a given space. So I can cut longer DVDs with better quality. So maybe that's the impetus.

Thanks,

-P

 

[DaFireMedic]

I'd like to interject a question here if I could. I've shot video for quite some time, though not underwater. I've only done a couple of underwater filming sessions (with an Ike housing and a Canon miniDV cam) but in reading this thread, something came to mind.

What is the benefit of shooting 24p underwater? I certainly understand doing it if you plan to transfer to film. But why not shoot in the mode that offers the most light gathering and decimate later if you REALLY want to move to 24p. Very few people are going to be looking at videos on truly progressive dispays so you're going delivering to interlaced displays in most cases anyway.

For most of my filming, I've gone to shooting 30p because I like the look. It may not be as filmic as 24p, but I am not going to be doing any film transfers in the near future. And 30p works great when I create videos for the web. If I am running short on light, I shoot 60i.

I don't mean to question anyone's motivation for choosing the cameras they do, but I just wonder if we aren't jumping on the 24p thing for the wrong reasons sometimes. One thing it DOES do is allow for more runtime in a given space. So I can cut longer DVDs with better quality. So maybe that's the impetus.

Thanks,

-P

Thats just it, the 24p mode on the Canon is what offers the most light gathering capability, significantly more sensitive than the HC7, if camcorderinfo.com's tests are reliable, and I have found them to be. In general, the 24p look is just another tool in your menu of tools, to achieve a look that you may want. For indie filmmakers it is highly desireable, and useful tool for anyone doing significant topside videography. But underwater, the benefit of the true 24p of the Canon is that it significantly increases the low light capability of the camera.

I am not trying to steer anyone toward the HV20 over the HC7. Please choose based on your individual needs. It was just the camera that I chose based on the type of stuff I wanted to do with it, exclusively topside stuff at the time. I did quite a bit of research on it before purchasing and I have experience using it. I also use mine for indie film type stuff, for which I think the HV20 stands out. But underwater, the HC7 may better suit ones needs, certainly so if you want a housing with electronic controls. Neither Canon nor Panasonic offer Lanc on their camcorders. It was a tough decision for me as well.

 

[WannaLaguna]

I don't think I'd mind the reversed image until it came to trying to use the LCD for panning. Because you'd instictively want to pan with the object that was moving. But I don't know since I've never really tried it. If you're using the viewfinder or just shooting over the top of the housing, there's no difference. But given that you can't add an external monitor w/o doing some custom work to the Ikelite, it's likely you would at times be using the LCD for framing since using the viewfinder with a mask is harder. Especially if you're panning on something going by fast.

I'd go for an HC-series with the EVO. But I'm biased. Here's my reasons why:

I'm only ever going to buy Sony cameras with LANC ports. And likely put them in electronic housings. For multiple reasons:

I like to maintain a firm grip on the housing's handles when I'm shooting. And I really like to push a button to zoom in and out while keeping the subject centered in the viewfinder. Most people who use mechanical housings say you get used to where the controls are located but you still have to take your hand off the handle. And if the housing is new, likely also have to hold it out in front of you to locate the control. With my EVO the buttons are right where you'd expect them to be. I also stop/start my camera often so having the trigger under your forefinger just works.

I've seen continous action footage shot with an Ikelite housing in a slight current and several times during the clip I could see a jiggle when the operator released a handle to push/move a control. I don't know if it's because the Ikelite is too heavy or too lite.
In all fairness, they had lights attached to the housing so that may've caused some of the problem.

I like to plug in two connectors (Lanc & Mic) seal the back and dive.

I also like to record sound. I shot Dolphins last April and you hear all the clicks/pops as they sonared us. Especially when one of them liked her reflection in my port. I don't remember hearing it while diving but it's on the tape.

I like a redundant depth rating to keep my $1000+ camera from getting wet. The Amphibico's 330' rating does that for me. I could theoretically exceed the Ikelite's rating and don't need to be worried about that just then.

I'm also a big fan of dual o-ringed metal boxes for my cameras. You can afford to be a little rougher with them if necessary in swells or bad surface conditions. I had a poly housing before I bought my EVO and there's a huge difference in the construction and durability. Price too of course... And nobody damages your EVO when they drop their housing on top of it in the rinse bucket. Even the front port is recessed to minimize damage.

I also like an alarm to go off indicating a leak. Especially in a non-clear housing. I don't want to have to peer into my Gates or Equinox housing to see if there's water inside. I turn my camera on before I put the housing in the water so it will go off if I don't have a good seal also. Might be able to save the camera that way on the surface. My pro photographer friend always says it's not if you'll have a leak, it's when.

Although if Gates ports had been cheaper, I might be shooting one now.

Things I wish my Amphibico had: MWB. I'd use it if I could. Since I'll never shoot with lights. I also wish the d&$@ thing was lighter since it rides in my carry-on.

I can't comment on the HV20 as I've never held one.

There is some discussion in the HC7 review on camcorderinfo.com about it's low light performance that you may want to read. Although with lights it's less of an issue.

I'll throw you another curve - seen the Seatools HC7 housing??? http://www.seatoolusa.com/hc7/index.php They also have an HC3 housing.

My best advice, do what I did. Call Mike Luzansky at H20PhotoPros. He spent at least a 1/2 hr. on the phone with me discussing all the options before I bought my EVO - from him...(818) 535-3251. Or PM him here on SB.

Again Steve, Thanks VERY much for your detailed reply. Construction was (is) also a concern for me. The Poly housings don't seem as rugged as say the EVO. Your point about having the controls on your handles and not having to remove your hands is a BIG selling feature as well.

Hmmm... definitely like the EVO over the seatools..at least at first glance..

I've spent a good many hours (as my boss will tell you ) on camcorderinfo.com and read everything I could on both cameras.

One thing I found interesting was you said you "would never shoot with lights? Why is that? The EVO kit I am looking at comes with a 10W HID lamp... is it a cost or light quality issue?

I shoot stills with a D200 and one thing I do use is MWB So I can definitely see that being a problem on the HC7.

thanks again,

Dive Safe,
Jeff

 

[WannaLaguna]

I'd like to interject a question here if I could. I've shot video for quite some time, though not underwater. I've only done a couple of underwater filming sessions (with an Ike housing and a Canon miniDV cam) but in reading this thread, something came to mind.

What is the benefit of shooting 24p underwater? I certainly understand doing it if you plan to transfer to film. But why not shoot in the mode that offers the most light gathering and decimate later if you REALLY want to move to 24p. Very few people are going to be looking at videos on truly progressive dispays so you're going delivering to interlaced displays in most cases anyway.

For most of my filming, I've gone to shooting 30p because I like the look. It may not be as filmic as 24p, but I am not going to be doing any film transfers in the near future. And 30p works great when I create videos for the web. If I am running short on light, I shoot 60i.

I don't mean to question anyone's motivation for choosing the cameras they do, but I just wonder if we aren't jumping on the 24p thing for the wrong reasons sometimes. One thing it DOES do is allow for more runtime in a given space. So I can cut longer DVDs with better quality. So maybe that's the impetus.

Thanks,

-P

For me, I shoot just as much topside as I do underwater. It's a "nice to have" feature. As Steve said...for the experimental filmmaker.

I look at it as a "down the road" kinda situation. As technology advances so will our displays...but...then again...by the time that happens...how many generations old are our cameras??....ya see how they get us...career purchasers..

Dive Safe,

Jeff

 

[diversteve]

Hmmm... definitely like the EVO over the seatools..at least at first glance..

I have fat fingers so me also. But is it tiny...I saw them side-by-side recently, you could almost fit the Seatool inside the EVO.

One thing I found interesting was you said you "would never shoot with lights? Why is that? The EVO kit I am looking at comes with a 10W HID lamp... is it a cost or light quality issue?

Neither, I only shoot in bright tropical waters (Caribbean, Maui etc.) under 100' - mostly under 60'. And I travel as light as possible. The EVO fits in my airline approved roller with room left over. Add lights/arms and I'd be checking a Pelican case.

Also I'm not shooting for anyone but myself. I also don't mind when it's a little blue, it seems closer to the way I remember it. Although the red filter does do a pretty good job of correcting for that.

 

[Video rookie]

I am very happy with my Sony A1U in my Amphibico EVO Pro housing. Love being able to manual white balance, and the size of the overall setup makes it fairly easy to carry on. When I add the lights it gets a bit heavy (22.5 lbs dry), but I still carry it on.

So far I've not really had a problem with light (down to about 90'), since I typically dive nice clear blue water, and now that I've added a float to help the buoyancy when using lights, I'll have the lights to help when it does get a bit dark, at least in the close shots.

I personally like the electronic controls, basically due to the fact that I don't get to dive enough that I feel I would be able to remember the location of the manual controls without looking.

Nothing in this hobby (profession for some) is cheap, and the decisons are never ending.

Vic

 

[WannaLaguna]

I have fat fingers so me also. But is it tiny...I saw them side-by-side recently, you could almost fit the Seatool inside the EVO.
Neither, I only shoot in bright tropical waters (Caribbean, Maui etc.) under 100' - mostly under 60'. And I travel as light as possible. The EVO fits in my airline approved roller with room left over. Add lights/arms and I'd be checking a Pelican case.

Also I'm not shooting for anyone but myself. I also don't mind when it's a little blue, it seems closer to the way I remember it. Although the red filter does do a pretty good job of correcting for that.

Thanks Steve, unfortunately...at the moment... I am diving in the great lakes and it's usually quite dark...and cold. The only time I could see getting away with not using lights would be on some of the dives up in Lake Huron/Georgian Bay.

I'll be ordering my EVO w/ 10W HID lamps and HC7 this weekend. I'll keep you posted and I'll try to get some footage up as soon as I can.

THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR ALL YOUR FEEDBACK!

dive safe,

Jeff.