I think I will...

[jkennedy]

Great points Rick. The whole time I was reading this thread you were the first to mention "IN" sourcing.(Honda,Mercedes,and etc.) If all the jobs are in Mexico why are the Mexicans coming here and finding a job in ten minutes. To set around and blame goverment is not American and LAZY. I have lost my job and picked my *** up and found a bigger and better one. It's out there. Only 5.4% of the workers in this country are not working. 94.6% are WORKING. 5 per cent of the people in our great country wouldn't work if you gave them a job. So where are YOU that complain?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Great points Rick. The whole time I was reading this thread you were the first to mention "IN" sourcing.(Honda,Mercedes,and etc.) If all the jobs are in Mexico why are the Mexicans coming here and finding a job in ten minutes.

First off, not all the jobs are in mexico but manufacturing is NOT in good shape in this country.

Second, have you ever spent much time in any of the border towns where so many of the manufacturing plants are located? I have and I can tell you that they aren't nice places. I can't imagine any one wanting to live there if they have a chance to come here.

To set around and blame goverment is not American and LAZY.

I don't know that I've noticed any one here blaming the government. I do know alot about the mismanagement I've seen in these plants that I've moved south (this is the third).

I'm not sure who you're calling lazy either. Myself, I've been working since I was 15 and doctored my birth certificate so I could get a job. I've started 2 different businesses and worked myself through school while raising a family. School that I have 4 more years of payments on BTW. Since closing the dive shop last year I went back to shoeing horses on the side so I still work evenings and weekends. Lazy? Nobody by that name around here.

I have lost my job and picked my *** up and found a bigger and better one.

Finding a job is one thing. However, if you have to sell your house and move enough times you eventually find yourself losing your job when you are at an age where no one wants you and you have nothing but a huge mortgage.

It's out there. Only 5.4% of the workers in this country are not working. 94.6% are WORKING.

Somewhat deceptive figures unless you show a pay/benefite distribution along with the 94%.

5 per cent of the people in our great country wouldn't work if you gave them a job.

Yes and I say that if one chooses not to work we should let them starve rather than give them a free ride.

So where are YOU that complain?

That's easy to answer. I'm working on moving my third manufacturing facility to Mexico. I have been doing this for 15 years and have no pension or seniority. I've watched manufacturing and business management change over the years. We used to have a few VP's who understood manufacturing and impressed you with their talent. Now days it's hard to even find some one who knows what you're talking about. Now we have organizations that are so top heavy that every project meeting I'm in has way more "managers" than working people. 3 people do the work and like 30 manage it. LOL. High payed people I might add. How many engineers does it take to put in a light bulb? Never mind. How much does it cost to create a timing chart and power point presentation that would be funny if we didn't have to spend so many hours explaing why it's all wrong and fixing it?

When the cost becomes too much of a burden they move the manufacturing part of the oporation to Mexico so they can keep paying the managers. LOL. Shoot... we see managers with strange titles that make it impossible to even figure out what they're supposed to be doing. They use consulting firms to tell them how to find the rest room.

BTW, what percentage of the cost burden does this highy paid indirect labor represent? I can tell you this, that the direct labor portion of most of the products that I've moved to mexico was less than 10% and I'll bet there were products where it was closer to 1%. Now, the math is simple. If you reduce that small percentage (direct labor) by a large percentage, you didn't save very much. If you keep all that expensive indirect labor and buy them new homes in the area where they want to set up shop you won't save a thing even if you save as much on direct labor as you claimed that you would...which you won't. The 1, 2 or 3 year payback you promised on the move will turn into a 10 year payback or longer...if you really save anything.

The high level managers and consultants who sold the original fantasy will be well on their way to destroying another company (maybe their 2nd or 3rd)before any one ever realizes they were full of it.

I've seen it. Automotive switches in Winamac In. Labor content average 10%. Operator salery $10/hour...Mexican labor at the time was $1/hour. Labor copntent of the switches built there...10%...just like in Winamac. Consider the promotions given to those who carried out a wonderful move and the savings is ZIP. Those who did it pat themselves on the back and move on to do it someplace else. LOL Shoot they spent more on flying me back and forth than they could ever save. Management does throw some big parties in Brownsville during the move when all their buds are down there with them though. Some one with third grade math skills could see what's going on here.

There are products where low cost labor makes sense. Short lived products with high labor content and low skill requirements = go for the cheap labor. However, you won't make money by moving them because they won't be around long enough to pay for the move. The stock holders will have to pay the consultants bill out of their own pocket. You have to put them in the right place from the start and the process begines with product inception and the design. you design it for how you are going to build it. When you concieve a product that no onew will want, design it so it's almost impossible to build, have huge indirect costs (your buds with titles that don't mean anything who make power point shows for a living) and then decide that you're in financial trouble you won't make money by running for the border especially if you keep the buds with the funny titles.

Sorry, the big money is in burden (including indirect labor) and the biggie...material cost which is closely tied to the design. Chasing cheap assembly labor is a crutch of those who haven't a clue and they misuse even that.

Now, don't get me wrong. If a guy runs a business he can do whatever he wants with it. That doesn't mean it's smart. He can cover his tracks any way he wants but I saw him go so I don't need the tracks. LOL

 

[Rick Murchison]

I'm not too worried because I have faith that even the things that seem bad are part of a plan that's good.

Indeed. Indeed they are. Faith and persistence will overcome difficulties every time. Not eliminate them or avoid them... but get through them and actually be stronger for them, yes.
Did you know that most wealthy Americans don't accumulate (by accumulate I mean have more assets than debt) a dime until after they're 50?
----------
Mike's other points about a lousy management model run rampant in our manufacturing sector are well taken. Time was when a management trainee was turned over to a shop foreman and did time on the line under tutelage before ever being allowed to make a decision (much like a JO in the Navy being turned over to a CPO for awhile). There just ain't any way to effectively manage ditchdiggers if you haven't dug good ditches yourself.
-----------
My first run-in with government meddling in my work was when I was 14. I had a job with a florist, running flowers from the delivery car to the customer and collecting a signature on the receipt. The pay was $.45/hour, a small fortune to me in those days. I was happy, I was off the streets, had spending money that I'd earned myself and I was learning to work for a boss so my folks were happy, and the florist was doing something good for the community by providing (essentially creating) the work for us teenagers.
Here comes big brother...
Gotta pay those boys minimum wage ($1.25 at the time).
"They ain't worth it" said the florist. "They're worth $.45/hour, not $1.25." Too bad, sez the government, you have to pay 'em $1.25.
So I was fired and the florist raised the pay of the drivers (16 year olds mostly, who were only worth the .90/hr they were making) to $1.25/hr and they had to run the flowers to the customers themselves.
I've had an enduring love for government meddling in the private sector ever since.
Rick

 

[Scubaguy62]

Instead of crying about outsourcing I'm trying a different approach. I want to campaign to outsource every single job in America. Let's start with the government. We could elect our congress and president from whatever foreign source works cheaper. I bet there are political science PHD's in China that would work for $10,000 a year. Next, we could use illegal immigrants to deliver the mail, as they will work far cheaper than the current postal workers and don't require benefits. Volunteer military enlistments down? Just call a foreign labor broker and order Army members by the 1000's. They'll soon be building our military hardware anyway. After all, why is it just my (and Mike F's) jobs that these third world workers are suddenly qualified for? Maybe when the crowd that doesn't think outsourcing applies to them is threatened they'll wake up.

And what happens when they outsource their jobs to us? This is such a paradox.... illegal (unskilled) aliens keep crossing our borders everyday in search of jobs, but we're sending our jobs there because they can be done by unskilled labor. Oh well, I guess Mike's job is number 1,600,001 that has been lost in the last 3 1/2 yrs, and counting.

 

[whitefish]

Mike,

Sorry to hear the news as well. I just got my walking papers last week as well. I've got 4 more wks of work left to find another position in a company thats has the rep of one of the biggest offshore shops to date so prospects are slim. I got a pat on the back and well wishes, 9 wks of additional pay (after the remaing 4 wks of work) and severance if it doesn't work out. IT work here in Houston is slim so I'm most likey looking at a big change.

Good Luck,

Geek

First off, I'm sorry to hear about anyone suddenly losing their job. I too am losing my job in a couple of months (I work for a large CDN insurance company, in IT), but frankly I'm looking forward to it since I can't stand the new company .

I'm curious about those in IT that are losing their jobs, and what area of IT you are in. Is it management? Technical? Programming? Hardware? Sales? Is your job being moved ?(...to another state? Offshore?). The reason I ask is that most of the jobs that I see moving are in programming (e.g., software programming being moved to India). On the flip side, if you have a 'niche' technical skill combined with business-application knowledge, you have a much better chance of finding work locally (probably a large urban centre). Just my non-scientific observations.

Thanks in advance for any info you care to share!

 

[yknot]

It's more than sending these "unskilled" positions to Mexico. It's also watching some industries place work directly in a third world Asian country. You won't even be given a chance to compete because it is assumed that you won't work for 40 cents and hour. Not just assy. jobs- everything. The engineering, management, etc. This isn't a skilled vs unskilled or lazy American issue. When medical facilities start sending X-rays to India for analysis because some qualified techie there can read them and will do so for a fraction of the cost of their US counterpart it's time to take notice. BTW- note to MikeF- ever notice how the people that make the decision to outsource always find a way to draw the line as to who's expedible and replacable at about a pay grade below theirs?

 

[bwerb]

Another thing that people don't consider is the long term implications...if you look at the increasing standard of living in the countries we are sending jobs to, you will have the same issues. As a middle class develops...suddenly, no one wants to be the "unskilled worker" anymore, everyone wants to be the manager. The youth are getting more and more educated about the western lifestyle and are doing all they can to get in on the action. No longer satisfied with .40/hr...they are leaving to find where they can make more...suddenly the factory in country X which was so cheap 10 years ago is now pricing itself out of the market...time to move production to country Y.

It's a great big circle. We haven't seen the end results yet...but we had all better hang on for the ride.

 

[Rick_G]

Hello-

I few months ago I post a thread on dive equipment made in the U.S.A. What I have done to help layoffs in the U.S. is to by U.S. made goods. I got several good replies letting me know what's available that's made in the U.S. I ended up buying over $4000 dollars in gear, all companies I purchased from were U.S. Headquartered companies. Some of the gear was built/ assembled overseas, it is hard to figure out where it's actually being made. The biggest thing we as consumers can do is buy our own goods from people like Mike. I will not buy ANYTHING from seaquest/aqualung/apex ever, it's the French thing, I would drown first. As I have increased my awareness about what I buy, and what the profits from those goods support, I have found perfectly good alternatives made here in the U.S.A. "Sometimes" they are more expensive but I will save and wait if I have to. We could make a huge difference if we reduced the trade deficit, money pours out of the US. Consumers not the government drive the economy and drive the jobs overseas. This is not a contradiction to my earlier post, there are somethings we can not avoid.

HELP MIKE BUY AMERICAN

Rick

 

[MikeFerrara]

Hello-

I few months ago I post a thread on dive equipment made in the U.S.A. What I have done to help layoffs it the U.S. is to by U.S. made goods. I got several good replies letting me know what available that's made in the U.S. I ended up buying over $4000 dollars in gear, all companies I purchased from were U.S. Headquartered companies. Some of the gear was built/ assembled overseas, it is hard to figure out where it's actually being made. The biggest thing we as consumers can do is buy our own goods from people like Mike. I will not buy ANYTHING from seaquest/aqualung/apex ever, it's the French thing, I would drown first. As I have increased my awareness about what I buy, and what the profits from those goods support, I have found perfectly good alternatives made here in the U.S.A. "Sometimes" they are more expensive but I will save and wait if I have to. We could make a huge difference if we reduced the trade deficit, money pours out of the US. Consumers not the government drive the economy and drive the jobs overseas. This is not a contradiction to my earlier post, there are somethings we can not avoid.

HELP MIKE BUY AMERICAN

Rick

Cool post.

The problem is figuring out which is which. If you buy a Chevy, the window, doorlock and maplight swithches are all made in mexico. The circuit boards are all Mexican...ect.

Recently we had a customer that wanted a quantity of a new meter we have but they wanted it made in the US. We are tooled to do it here because it was originally planned to be built here but it was moved to Mexico at the last minute. To satisfy their requirements, we built them in Mecico but did the final assembly and testing here. the "from" address on the shipping label was a US address.

Maybe people need to be a little hungry. When we're hungry, we perform and the non-performers get sent home even if they're a bud of he boss...because the boss is hungry and needs stuff done for his money.

I really don't have anything against overseas made products, although, all else being equal I'd prefer to buy US. The key phrase there is "all else being equal".

If building a product over seas is really the best way to go then it's the most responsible thing to do...for the employees of the company and for the stock holders. It's when a company tries to save $0.05 on a product in order to cover up for things that borders on embezelment (sp?). This doesn't do the stock holders or the employees any good. Worse, the cost savings itself is often an un-truth.

If we want America to be competative we either haver to be cheaper, better or first. It's been done before. What we lack is imagination and skill. Well, we have it but it's in hybernation. We want to get big bucks for doing the same old crap over and over that every one else knows how to do. Our management wants to get big bucks for being a middleman that doesn't add value to the product or process.