I wanna do it all

[LiteHedded]

and cathedral has been sitting there waiting for someone to come along and extend that line. todd left it at 17000' and that cave has had open access the whole time

 

[DaleC]

“Some men will never make divers. Any man can go down, I believe, but not every man can dive and accomplish anything. “ Tom Eadie – 1929

What a terrible quote.
First of all, of course some men will never make divers, most don't even try, or is he referring to their offspring? Well, most of them won't try either.
Secondly, no man (or woman for that matter) can dive and accomplish anything although some can accomplish a great deal (whether diving or not diving).

To be fair. Tom Eadie was a navy hard hat diver who's entire frame of reference was to working divers. Sport diving had not even been invented yet. The only skills he would be discussing or aware of would be coolness under pressure (pun intended) and the ability to accomplish mechanical tasks.

In that regard his quote is a good one, but used in a poor context.
Ok, back to the party...

 

[nimoh]

To be fair. Tom Eadie was a navy hard hat diver who's entire frame of reference was to working divers. Sport diving had not even been invented yet. The only skills he would be discussing or aware of would be coolness under pressure (pun intended) and the ability to accomplish mechanical tasks.

In that regard his quote is a good one, but used in a poor context.
Ok, back to the party...

still poorly worded. Substituting "something" for "anything" would make more sense since there are things that are impossible while diving.

I don't know anything about Tom Eadie, he is/was probably a great diver just doesn't seem to be a great source for sound bites.

 

[DaleC]

Well, not to nit pick, but in the world that T.E. inhabited there were only a limited number of reasons for diving but always an objective. In his world you were asked (ordered) to descend for a specific purpose. Either you located something, recovered something, closed something, repaired something or attached something. In that regard, it's entirely possible for a man not to be able to accomplish anything. This meant something to the divers of that time (hence the importance of context) because, if you did not accomplish anything, another man would have to descend and perform your assigned task with an increase in overall exhaustion and risk of injury. It was an important point for divers like Eadie.

Tom was a twice decorated diver who is noted for very daring confined space entries and the rescue of a trapped fellow diver. He, and Commander Edward Ellsberg, worked on the S-51 (sunk 1925) which is detailed in Ellsberg's book "On the Bottom" With the S-4 (sunk 1927), Eadie himself heard sounds of life through the hull but rescue attempts were called off for weather. He later worked on the salvage with regret. Eadie wrote a book "I Like Diving" in 1929.

I don't know about sound bites (they were still making silent pictures) but his life story would make an awesome movie.

Some guys like caves, I like diving history

 

[Omisson]

There are plenty of good cave instructors out there, spread out over several agencies, GUE included. Now, I defy you to walk into CCDS or CA and have either Jim or Edd say the above mentioned instructors are no good.

That is my point. Edd or Jim would never say they (or their organizations) was "where its at" or was the "defining" agency of cave diving.... they wouldnt put other agencies down nor over-build up their own.

Unfortunately PFCAJ doesnt subscribe to that version of humility. And it was to HIS post mine was directed.

---------- Post added January 14th, 2015 at 09:07 PM ----------

I'll agree that the NACD and NSSCDS did set the standard. But they are also the agencies with little or no oversight that led to so many instructors doing a poor job. For example, you basically lost all your clout in your post when you listed TJ Johnson as one of the greats. None of his students that I've ever met could pass my Cavern Class, let alone full cave. That's not picking on TJ, it's just the way it is. His students have come to me, and not once did anyone pass without serious remedial training. I've never seen an Ed student, but I have seen Ed in the water. He's was of the best cave divers I've ever witnessed. Hopefully that translates into good students. But I can't attest either way.

As many of you know, I've done A LOT of teaching with Jim Wyatt. I've never witnessed a bad student. I'm sure they are out there, just as I know there is a student with my name on his card that I'm not completely proud of (but it's the only one, and I never issue cards of students I'm not proud of anymore) But what's my point? I'm not sure yet. Let's see if this comes full circle.

I believe that there are a few really great instructors. They are great in that they can convey how to dive safely as an entry level cave diver. Can they teach you to lay line, exit a cave, survive. Yup. And they do a really good job at it. But that's not where diving ends. When's the last time Johnny Richards did a dive for fun to 10k feet at Manatee. Has he ever done it? When's the last time Jim swam to 6000' at Madison? It's a trick question. Jim has never swam through Rocky Horror. That doesn't take away from their ability to teach you core skills to becoming a great cave diver. There's no question that despite all the crap that follows Jim around, he puts out good divers.

But where does that leave us? Well, I can tell you this.... I've NEVER met a crappy GUE Instructor. I've NEVER had a GUE student come to me for full cave and need remedial anything. Their buoyancy, trim, propulsion, status in the water was spot on EVERY single time. Can I say that about any other single agency (even my own agency)? NOPE.

And about GUE's hubris. I believe they have made a real effort to eliminate that persona. Surely it's not perfect. It's certainly not gone completely. And frankly there are still some arsehats who believe in the old ways of doing things. But I still remember to this day the time David Rhea of GUE spent
30+ minutes explaining the ins and outs of the RB80 to me, an IANTD instructor, as friendly and as patiently as could be.

---------- Post added January 13th, 2015 at 11:21 PM ----------



Omission -- You know Jim hasn't really done much in the way of exploration right? Has he been to the end of the line in Manatee, Ginnie, Madison, Little River, Indian?

I like Jim Wyatt, and he's an awesome instructor, but you got your facts wrong if you think he's laid a bunch of line anywhere. Jim is an educator. He's never been an explorer by most people's measure. Sure he was here in the very beginning, then moved away for a long time, then moved back about a decade ago. If you want to know who really did the exploration, call people like JJ, Mark Long, Bill Rennaker, etc. Jim's name isn't on the map because he wasn't there for it.

But, I'll answer your question...
Bill Rennaker, Tom Mount, Paul Heinerth, Jill Heinerth, Jarrod Joblonski,
And sure, JJ became a cave instructor in 1990, but that's still before Jim Wyatt came back from his hiatus at the ocean.

Bill Rennaker, Tom Mount, Paul Heinerth, Jill Heinerth

None are GUE are they?

Just saying......

---------- Post added January 14th, 2015 at 09:18 PM ----------

I'll agree that the NACD and NSSCDS did set the standard. But they are also the agencies with little or no oversight that led to so many instructors doing a poor job. For example, you basically lost all your clout in your post when you listed TJ Johnson as one of the greats. None of his students that I've ever met could pass my Cavern Class, let alone full cave. That's not picking on TJ, it's just the way it is. His students have come to me, and not once did anyone pass without serious remedial training. I've never seen an Ed student, but I have seen Ed in the water. He's was of the best cave divers I've ever witnessed. Hopefully that translates into good students. But I can't attest either way.

As many of you know, I've done A LOT of teaching with Jim Wyatt. I've never witnessed a bad student. I'm sure they are out there, just as I know there is a student with my name on his card that I'm not completely proud of (but it's the only one, and I never issue cards of students I'm not proud of anymore) But what's my point? I'm not sure yet. Let's see if this comes full circle.

I believe that there are a few really great instructors. They are great in that they can convey how to dive safely as an entry level cave diver. Can they teach you to lay line, exit a cave, survive. Yup. And they do a really good job at it. But that's not where diving ends. When's the last time Johnny Richards did a dive for fun to 10k feet at Manatee. Has he ever done it? When's the last time Jim swam to 6000' at Madison? It's a trick question. Jim has never swam through Rocky Horror. That doesn't take away from their ability to teach you core skills to becoming a great cave diver. There's no question that despite all the crap that follows Jim around, he puts out good divers.

But where does that leave us? Well, I can tell you this.... I've NEVER met a crappy GUE Instructor. I've NEVER had a GUE student come to me for full cave and need remedial anything. Their buoyancy, trim, propulsion, status in the water was spot on EVERY single time. Can I say that about any other single agency (even my own agency)? NOPE.

And about GUE's hubris. I believe they have made a real effort to eliminate that persona. Surely it's not perfect. It's certainly not gone completely. And frankly there are still some arsehats who believe in the old ways of doing things. But I still remember to this day the time David Rhea of GUE spent
30+ minutes explaining the ins and outs of the RB80 to me, an IANTD instructor, as friendly and as patiently as could be.

---------- Post added January 13th, 2015 at 11:21 PM ----------



Omission -- You know Jim hasn't really done much in the way of exploration right? Has he been to the end of the line in Manatee, Ginnie, Madison, Little River, Indian?

I like Jim Wyatt, and he's an awesome instructor, but you got your facts wrong if you think he's laid a bunch of line anywhere. Jim is an educator. He's never been an explorer by most people's measure. Sure he was here in the very beginning, then moved away for a long time, then moved back about a decade ago. If you want to know who really did the exploration, call people like JJ, Mark Long, Bill Rennaker, etc. Jim's name isn't on the map because he wasn't there for it.

But, I'll answer your question...
Bill Rennaker, Tom Mount, Paul Heinerth, Jill Heinerth, Jarrod Joblonski,
And sure, JJ became a cave instructor in 1990, but that's still before Jim Wyatt came back from his hiatus at the ocean.

And by the way Jim is one of the longest standing cave instructors still ACTIVELY certifying students. He was certified as a cave instructor in 1975 was JJ even born then? As for Wyatts exploration history:
as chairman of the diving committee that explored the "Lost Sea" for a period of 2 years. The "Lost Sea" is in the Guiness Book of World Records as being the largest underground lake in the world. He explored the underwater caves that extended off from the lake, He worked in conjunction with cave divers from the US Geological Survey in 1976. The Lost Sea had never before been explored by divers in the underwater caves. Exploring, mapping and installing hundreds of feet of exploratory line in a virgin cave system is the pinnacle of any cave explorers' career.

I'd say thats pretty solid exploration experience...

maybe you forgot about Jim's experience.....

 

[PfcAJ]

Hundreds of feet?

Lel

 

[victorzamora]

GUE divers have helped with the Madison project, and I hope they continue to do so since they are a tremendous asset to any cave exploration. I am not really sure what point you are trying to make bringing it up in this context.

Is there some exploration that the traditional "DIR" backmount configuration isn't suited for? Sure. But I also know for a fact that one member of the dive team who did the last pre-flood exploration/survey dives at Madison, i.e. the "new end of the line" did the whole dive in a "DIR" backmount configuration.

My point wasn't anti-GUE....I'm just sick of hearing of GUE as the be-all-end-all infallible training agency. I know there are a few of those gooey-peeps pushing Madison, but there are plenty of non-gooey-peeps or EX-gooey-peeps pushing Madison as well. And other cave systems. My point was, is, and will forever be, GUE is a great agency and they really hold true to tight standards and I applaud them for that....but they're not the best. Best on average? Best as a whole? Maybe. But it's not like the only good divers on the planet are diving with their tanks in the wrong place

 

[LiteHedded]

What a strange thread this is.

 

[Superlyte27]

Omission, you make me laugh.

 

[RJP]

Hundreds of feet?

Lel

"So, there I was... dozens of yards back..."