If you could change one thing about dive training...

[wetb4igetinthewater]

That's why people are supposed to have dive buddies nearby, for redundant air, hopefully. I've never seen any recreational diver in Asia bring along a pony bottle unless they were solo certified. Others with twin tanks were normally doing deep deco dives which doesn't fit in your average no exceeding NDL recreational dives.

Either have redundant air or good buddy skill.

I have no realistic solution to divers who do not meet existing performance requirements. All my proposals would eliminate many existing instructors, reduce the number of new dive pros, and reduce the number of newly certified divers.

Fortunately properly maintained gear is highly unlikely to fail or there would be far more fatalities.

 

[TMHeimer]

That would only be true if your lungs were not full. If you somehow did expel sufficient air during your ascent and felt the urge to breathe, then, yes, you could get air. If your lungs are full, you cannot inhale.
You ascend and your lungs become full, and as you continue to ascend, they become overfilled. If you hold your breath, you get a lung overexpansioni injury. If instead your airway is open, then the excess air comes out of your mouth. Your lungs are not only full, they are overfull, and keeping your airway open allows the excess air to escape safely.
If you follow the evolution of this in the thread, it was because people like you were praising the idea of sucking air out of your BCD, and others were pointing out that there are much better, safer alternatives.

No John, I was never praising the idea of using BC air. Just saying that if someone may be heading toward panic while ascending and they know it's there, it may save their life. Yes, of course there are better ways.

lowwall-- I do understand all the data you present. When I do a CESA from 30 feet I do feel the urge to breathe when nearing the surface, regardless of whether I should feel it or not. I don't THINK it is psychological. This is one of many reasons I would not practice a CESA from a deeper depth even though I know it has been done by many. I know the physics behind it.

 

[Centrals]

Zero to hero!
There are operators offering OW - Instructor and work package!!!!
One island in Thailand is famous for this kind of diving education.

The entry requirement for both dm and instructor is far too low.
PADI Dive master course is 18yr old and 40 logged dives! And the Instructor development course is not much harder.

 

[Scuba Client]

That may be true in Australia, but not everywhere. As an Advanced Diver I'm certified to organise and manage diving expeditions; in addition to administer O2 and use an AED, not forgetting the international certificate to drive the boat

Thanks to BSAC.

 

[Telvar]

Several things afaic:

• More dives in ow, like 8-10. Ppb part of ow
• 20-30 dives before doing aow. Make it somewhat advanced.
• Kill the zero to hero courses. There's much to be said about making a lot of dives in a short while, but msd in 3 or so weeks is just ridiculous and makes the whole 'msd status' even more useless.

€0,02

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Several things afaic:

• More dives in ow, like 8-10. Ppb part of ow
• 20-30 dives before doing aow. Make it somewhat advanced.
• Kill the zero to hero courses. There's much to be said about making a lot of dives in a short while, but msd in 3 or so weeks is just ridiculous and makes the whole 'msd status' even more useless.

€0,02

What of the following PPB performance requirements are not already in OW? The IG mentions swimming through hoops, but we all know that finning is a great way to mask buoyancy issues. There is mention of "efficient fin kicks, using long, slow strokes and gliding" that could be interpreted as frog kicks, but as it isn't stated, it could also be interpreted and long, slow flutter kicks.

There is hovering in different positions though. I don't get the value of Buddha hovers. There is backing away from inanimate object, but that can be done with hand sculling. A properly taught PPB course will include frog kicks and backfinning. But an improperly one won't. Both meet standards.

Dive One
• Rig a weight system with the following considerations in mind:
1. Estimate the amount of weight to begin a dive using PADI’s “Basic Weighting Guidelines” or the manufacturer recommendations (if using a rebreather).
2. Position and distribute the weight for comfort and desired body position (trim) in the water.
• Use visualization techniques prior to the dive to help you relax, establish a comfortable breathing pattern and move gracefully through the water.
• Conduct a buoyancy check by adjusting the amount of weight worn to achieve neutral buoyancy at the surface of the water with the BCD deflated.
• Make a controlled, slow descent to the bottom and, if needed, adjust for neutral buoyancy using the BCD.
• Adjust for neutral buoyancy at a predetermined depth.
• Hover for 60 seconds without rising or sinking more than 1 metre/3 feet by making minor depth adjustments using breath control only (open-circuit scuba), or using very minor hand/fin sculling only (rebreathers).
• Make minor depth adjustments using breath control only (open-circuit scuba).
• Swim horizontally, while neutrally buoyant without touching the bottom or breaking the surface of the water with equipment or body.
• Demonstrate efficient fin kicks, using long, slow strokes and gliding.
• Adjust weights (trim) and practice hovering in different positions – vertical, horizontal, feet slightly elevated and head slightly elevated.
• Conduct a postdive buoyancy check by adjusting the amount of weight worn to achieve neutral buoyancy at the surface of the water with the BCD deflated.

Dive Two
• Rig a weight system with the following considerations in mind:
1. Estimate the amount of weight to begin a dive using PADI’s “Basic Weighting Guidelines” or the manufacturer recommendations (if using a rebreather), or based on experience from previous dives.
2. Position and distribute the weight for comfort and desired body position (trim) in the water.
• Use visualization techniques to help you relax, establish a comfortable breathing pattern and move gracefully through the water.
• Conduct a pre- and post-dive buoyancy check by adjusting the amount of weight worn to achieve neutral buoyancy at the surface of the water with the BCD defl ated.
• Make a controlled, slow descent to the bottom and if needed, adjust for neutral buoyancy using the BCD.
• Demonstrate efficient fin kicks, using long, slow strokes and gliding after each kick.
• Hover for 90 seconds without rising or sinking more than 1 metre/3 feet by making minor depth adjustments using breath control only (open-circuit scuba), or using very minor hand/fi n sculling only (rebreathers).
• Flood and clear your mask while holding a specifi c hover depth and compensating for sudden buoyancy changes (rebreather divers only).
• Maneuver as close to a nonliving portion of the bottom (rock, sand, etc.) without touching it and then back away using neutral buoyancy with hand or fin sculling.

 

[ToneNQ]

End the customer relationship, stop referring to divers as guests and students, the instructor and the DMs and boat crew are not hosts. Too many instructors lead the dive and have a DM follow as the sweep. Not enough instructors mentor diving, rather just teach the certification being paid for.

My rule, either instructors should require (or a course requirement for each agency) should certified divers demonstrate evolving dive leadership or at least self reliance to their level, as a requirement for each additional cert. Essentially the instructor should give the dive brief and then largely follow, stopping for the skills requirements for the certification in-progress or to intervene if required. Make certified divers do the dive decision making and then mentor those decisions during the debrief.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Zero to hero!
There are operators offering OW - Instructor and work package!!!!
One island in Thailand is famous for this kind of diving education.

The entry requirement for both dm and instructor is far too low.
PADI Dive master course is 18yr old and 40 logged dives! And the Instructor development course is not much harder.

It's easy and fashionable to be dismissive of the entry requirements for Pro level. I've said before there should be a practical skills assessment prior to entry.

But practical skills are only part of it. The ability to teach, is not something quantifiable with the amount of dives nor years diving experience.

Someone could have a thick log book of dives but be really useless teaching concepts.

@boulderjohn will be able to give better insight into being an educator than I would

Someone working as a DM will get more experience and learn a lot more watching the mistakes of other divers, than someone constantly making the same dives with the same people.

 

[boulderjohn]

End the customer relationship, stop referring to divers as guests and students, the instructor and the DMs and boat crew are not hosts.

Those decisions are made by the dive operators, not the trainers or agencies. They are of the opinion that treating as customers the people paying them for their services is good for their business. They do want to stay in business.

Too many instructors lead the dive and have a DM follow as the sweep.

A few years ago a Virginia instructor led a line of students on a dive with no DM in sweep. The last diver in line didn't make it and was found dead later on. He was immediately expelled by his agency, and the ensuing lawsuit was not a pretty one for him.

Not enough instructors mentor diving, rather just teach the certification being paid for.

I don't know what this means.

My rule, either instructors should require (or a course requirement for each agency) should certified divers demonstrate evolving dive leadership or at least self reliance to their level, as a requirement for each additional cert. Essentially the instructor should give the dive brief and then largely follow, stopping for the skills requirements for the certification in-progress or to intervene if required. Make certified divers do the dive decision making and then mentor those decisions during the debrief.

Dive #4 of the PADI OW course requires that the students plan and execute the dive on their own, with the instructor following and intervening only as necessary. The OW course does not mention following DMs. Every course I know of assumes an independent diver doing independent dives.

 

[Blackcrusader]

Someone working as a DM will get more experience and learn a lot more watching the mistakes of other divers, than someone constantly making the same dives with the same people.

I dive with lots of different people with all sorts from newbies to instructors on vacation. Best thing I had was a regular DM I dive with we have done several hundred dives together. One day we take boat out to dive site DM asks me where his kit is? He had taken it ashore after the morning dives and forgot to put it back for the afternoon dive after making sure all the divers had their kit.

It was a funny one that experience.