If you could change one thing about dive training...

[Blackcrusader]

End the customer relationship, stop referring to divers as guests and students, the instructor and the DMs and boat crew are not hosts. Too many instructors lead the dive and have a DM follow as the sweep. Not enough instructors mentor diving, rather just teach the certification being paid for.

Funny thing that. At my good friends center one day I said let me plan the next days dives. He is like you will be shite.
So I looked at the tide charts and did the sites but in the opposite directions he normally planned. Several of the divers and the DM's were pretty happy after the next days dives. As a customer I led the dives and the DM's stayed at the rear letting the customers do our own thing. As I am very familiar with the dive sites I knew several of the good places to stop and look around for things. Towards the end of the dives we were near where the dive boat was waiting for us and basically the last 10 minutes was dawdling around the reefs on each dive finishing the safety stop before divers really knew they had done it.

After 3 dives my friend the dive center manager asked the divers what they thought of the days diving. They asked him to let me plan the next few days dives lol. Although the manager "knew" the dive sites he rarely dived. It would be nice if some dive centers let regular customers lead some dives. We don't have to be working dm's to plan a dive and keep situational awareness of the groups activities and check air from time to time. Was pretty relaxing after the first dive as was the same group on all three dives.

Being a dive buddy means you should learn how to dive with others and do your own thing and not rely on a DM or instructor. After all what do we do the certs for?

 

[wnissen]

The thing that drives me crazy is the certifications issued in what are essentially oversized pools. For instance, the Homestead Crater is 65 ft. / 20 m deep, 95F / 35C, essentially unlimited visibility, and is narrower than it is deep. Yet you can get certified there as an "open water" diver and go off and dive in a wetsuit and hood, through the surf. It's surprising more people don't die from that. I would like to see a gradation of observed dives, or alternately significant task loading during instruction, to ensure that the achieved skill level in the real world is adequate.

The advantage of this is it wouldn't affect the bread and butter vacation diver at all. They are already going with a DM, and if they never dive independently they would never have to worry about the requirements. It might even bring more business to the local shops, as people get their observed dives signed off. The "level" would have to be simple, like "surf", "hood required", "low viz".

Or you could elect to get certified under higher task loads and standards. The current open water course only has you demonstrate the skills that you might reasonably have to execute in order to not die, and under idealized conditions. If you could do them to, e.g., GUE rec standards, you could dive independently without being observed.

 

[TMHeimer]

The thing that drives me crazy is the certifications issued in what are essentially oversized pools. For instance, the Homestead Crater is 65 ft. / 20 m deep, 95F / 35C, essentially unlimited visibility, and is narrower than it is deep. Yet you can get certified there as an "open water" diver and go off and dive in a wetsuit and hood, through the surf. It's surprising more people don't die from that. I would like to see a gradation of observed dives, or alternately significant task loading during instruction, to ensure that the achieved skill level in the real world is adequate.

The advantage of this is it wouldn't affect the bread and butter vacation diver at all. They are already going with a DM, and if they never dive independently they would never have to worry about the requirements. It might even bring more business to the local shops, as people get their observed dives signed off. The "level" would have to be simple, like "surf", "hood required", "low viz".

Or you could elect to get certified under higher task loads and standards. The current open water course only has you demonstrate the skills that you might reasonably have to execute in order to not die, and under idealized conditions. If you could do them to, e.g., GUE rec standards, you could dive independently without being observed.

Well I agree, but. People have to get certified where certification is available. I you live in *&)^%/, Iowa/Utah, that's where it is.
Now you go to some place with ripping ocean surf or currents--well hey, better get advice and work up to that. Use common sense.

Before I was a diver we "snowbirded" on the FL panhandle and I saw folks letting their little kids in the water when the red flags were up and nasty surf. I assumed they were from maybe inland somewhere and used to lake swimming.

 

[TMHeimer]

Funny thing that. At my good friends center one day I said let me plan the next days dives. He is like you will be shite.
So I looked at the tide charts and did the sites but in the opposite directions he normally planned. Several of the divers and the DM's were pretty happy after the next days dives. As a customer I led the dives and the DM's stayed at the rear letting the customers do our own thing. As I am very familiar with the dive sites I knew several of the good places to stop and look around for things. Towards the end of the dives we were near where the dive boat was waiting for us and basically the last 10 minutes was dawdling around the reefs on each dive finishing the safety stop before divers really knew they had done it.

After 3 dives my friend the dive center manager asked the divers what they thought of the days diving. They asked him to let me plan the next few days dives lol. Although the manager "knew" the dive sites he rarely dived. It would be nice if some dive centers let regular customers lead some dives. We don't have to be working dm's to plan a dive and keep situational awareness of the groups activities and check air from time to time. Was pretty relaxing after the first dive as was the same group on all three dives.

Being a dive buddy means you should learn how to dive with others and do your own thing and not rely on a DM or instructor. After all what do we do the certs for?

Dive centers letting regular customers leading dives? Really? Uninsured non-"professional" customers? Well, I suppose if "leading" means being the first in line but the DM has responsibility for the group-- I suppose that may not be so risky liability-wise. I sound alarmist, but I'm in Canada, not U.S., the land of lawsuits. If I owned a dive Op I'd stay clear of that.

 

[ToneNQ]

Those decisions are made by the dive operators, not the trainers or agencies. ...............

I was not critical of individuals or agencies, but I do believe the practice is undermines training outcomes. That comes back in the cost of insurance premiums on the operators.

A few years ago a Virginia instructor led a line of students on a dive with no DM in sweep...............................

I don't advocate for this. If the group size or skill level warrants an instructor and DM, only a fool doesn't mitigate by available means, ie reduce the group size. In this case I'd suggest the instructor should sweep, if the instructor must lead they must be looking back regularly. It is essential to lead if the goal is to demonstrate buoyancy or managing swell or fin techniques etc. As such that lesson plan should have a clear control for how to maintain group contact and the instructor should monitor that from the front. Might be a DM, might be that a group of certified divers can watch each other and letting the dive leader know. Whatever it is, brief it and check it, as per standard risk management process to ensure it is effective. If I ask a student every 90sec where their buddy is I'd suggest the behaviour gets reinforced, if I never do then I cannot be shocked if their focus wanders. My IDC didn't put much into risk management, its easy to empathise with instructors having little awareness of it. In heavy industry its a core role requirement for every leader and trainer.

This feels very much like the scenario where each diver defers everything to the instructor, who is out the front doing all the thinking, which is exactly what I think needs to change. I'd be curious how he briefed the dive, but a life is lost.

I don't know what this means.

As a teacher, if I recall your background, you would not limit your teaching to your core subject and classroom boundaries? Certainly in my industry we are expected to go beyond our teams to enforce standards and develop our culture, especially workplace safety. That is the gist of my point.

Dive #4 of the PADI OW course requires that the students plan and execute the dive on their own...............

Not where I was going with this, but certainty require OW students manage a dive within the bounds of their competence. Probably not yet leading at AOW level if they're like me and did it pretty early; but if a diver is able why not give them a task not on the slate but is part of the dive? Give them rope, just keep hold of it. I don't normally dive with really new divers anymore so I won't digress further. Categorically the instructor needs to be in control for the new skills and new depth etc, but a good chunk of continuing education dives is commuting. Con Ed is where I was thinking divers need to show more personal accountability, and where instructors could mentor those broader or deeper skills. An MSDT can have a different approach to an OWSI, Trimix can be treated differently to ITT.

When experienced divers behave like their cert level, dives go much more smoothly with a lot less hanging around. Indemnity insurance does not impede this and many divers are lazy enough to just go with it. The end result is when the instructor is not on subsequent dives, the broader decision making is not practiced and the skills gap is wider than it could have been.

If we talk Trimix, what new skill is added in the course, especially if the student has ER? So a buddy pair should be able to descend, find the site/depth, hit the deco obligation, monitor gas, call the turn, ascend, gas switch, clear deco and surface, without the instructor initiating any steps. At many points in that dive there are skills to validate competency, some that I can initiate, some that you need to. If you're leading, the moment you turn around I know an S drill or other skill is coming and I'm getting ready. If I'm navigating its more likely to be a surprise and a much better test of my skills. Why not give me the site map, tell me how much water you need, any run-time limits and any depths/times for skills, then let me plan and brief this dive? My buddy does the next one, etc. Its just a thought, I'm not ready to argue that it is a plausible change to foist on the industry, though I'd wager smaller clubs do it.

 

[SlugLife]

Certification, at any level I've completed (PADI OW, AOW, Nitrox, SSI Rescue) should include more hours of practical time. Most of my training consisted of checking boxes down a list, the bare minimum instructional time, bare minimum dive time required, and handing me a card. I never ever left a class (except for my rescue class) feeling comfortable or competent. Then we are told the only way to improves skills is by diving, but repeating any skill (diving or otherwise) without some sort of feedback and correction does not really lead to improvement in skill. You can throw 1000 free throws but if you don't have a coach, or a skilled observer of some sort, you will only get incrementally better unless you are already starting at an more advanced level. This is similar to how life support classes are taught (ACLS, BLS, PALS, etc etc). The end result is that you have a lot of certified health care workers and/or lay people who possess a certification card but two weeks later are often useless, or worse, in a 'code' situation. So I guess not only would I like to see more hours required (or at least offered) but more opportunities to hone skills in a supervised setting without shelling hundreds more for it. Maybe I'm asking too much.

A big part of what holds me back from taking classes, is the value-to-money ratio. Most of the programs I find locally are 1 days to 4 days, and $150 to $800. Then there's a few other ones that are really expensive, have no reviews, and are in the 1-7 day range.

A big part of what makes running a business inefficient is having a lot of tiny transactions with customers that only come back a few times. You have to make more unique sales per dollar, and sell to more individuals. You don't get to know the customer, and don't have the time to ever really start making the product (training) specific to them.

For example a 6 day $500 class is usually more profitable than 1-day $150 classes, or 2-day $250 classes. There's usually a lot of overhead involved. You're having to do a lot more marketing, answering questions, scheduling issues, customers that don't return or find another vendor, etc. Shorter classes are also likely to spend a significant percentage of the time on review or basics leaving far less time for the actual content, or worse skip all review, leaving some students lot and frustrated. The "bulk pricing" is also better for the student, in terms of their value-per-dollar.

To use another example example, if someone wanted you to do a 30 minute task underwater you might charge $150 just because of all the setup scuba requires. But for a 2-hour task, you might charge $225.

 

[Esprise Me]

The thing that drives me crazy is the certifications issued in what are essentially oversized pools. For instance, the Homestead Crater is 65 ft. / 20 m deep, 95F / 35C, essentially unlimited visibility, and is narrower than it is deep. Yet you can get certified there as an "open water" diver and go off and dive in a wetsuit and hood, through the surf. It's surprising more people don't die from that. I would like to see a gradation of observed dives, or alternately significant task loading during instruction, to ensure that the achieved skill level in the real world is adequate.

The advantage of this is it wouldn't affect the bread and butter vacation diver at all. They are already going with a DM, and if they never dive independently they would never have to worry about the requirements. It might even bring more business to the local shops, as people get their observed dives signed off. The "level" would have to be simple, like "surf", "hood required", "low viz".

Or you could elect to get certified under higher task loads and standards. The current open water course only has you demonstrate the skills that you might reasonably have to execute in order to not die, and under idealized conditions. If you could do them to, e.g., GUE rec standards, you could dive independently without being observed.

Yeah, I feel like the current training standards are perfectly adequate for making tropical vacation divers who will be supervised by a DM, less so the completely independent divers capable of planning and executing a dive with someone of an equal skill level they're supposed to be. I certainly needed some guided dives after I got certified to get comfortable. It's a shame there's such a shallow depth limit on the PADI Scuba Diver and other not-quite-OW certs; I think with a competent guide those folks could safely go deeper. With an incompetent guide, or with no guide, they're not necessarily safe at 40 feet.

 

[TMHeimer]

Yeah, I feel like the current training standards are perfectly adequate for making tropical vacation divers who will be supervised by a DM, less so the completely independent divers capable of planning and executing a dive with someone of an equal skill level they're supposed to be. I certainly needed some guided dives after I got certified to get comfortable. It's a shame there's such a shallow depth limit on the PADI Scuba Diver and other not-quite-OW certs; I think with a competent guide those folks could safely go deeper. With an incompetent guide, or with no guide, they're not necessarily safe at 40 feet.

I kind of agree. I think it also gets back to one of my old pet peeves about people being very comfortable in water prior to taking OW. I felt the course I took here (checkout dives in Nov. with thick wetsuits, lots of weights) was fine for me. My actual first dive was at Vortex Spring in FL, where I wound up going solo (not by choice and certainly don't recommend it, but it was to maybe 30'). After that it was dives with a buddy, both shore & boat.
But yeah, some of the students I observed while assisting for sure fit what you say.
Around here there are no guided dives and I think the majority do go right into buddy diving independent of a pro guide.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Yeah, I feel like the current training standards are perfectly adequate for making tropical vacation divers who will be supervised by a DM, less so the completely independent divers capable of planning and executing a dive with someone of an equal skill level they're supposed to be. I certainly needed some guided dives after I got certified to get comfortable. It's a shame there's such a shallow depth limit on the PADI Scuba Diver and other not-quite-OW certs; I think with a competent guide those folks could safely go deeper. With an incompetent guide, or with no guide, they're not necessarily safe at 40 feet.

I've had an online conversation with a dive center owner who stated he trains to the scuba diver level but still certifies to the open water level. I think the scuba diver certification is fairly useless. Increasing the depth to 60 feet and essentially be a non-autonomous diver that must follow a guide may address the gap. That dive center owner said that he ensures his customers "feel good."

Like it or not, that is the reality of some training (how much, I do not know). Probably more frequent that I'd like to imagine.

 

[Hauer2841]

I agree with NorCalDM above with respect to 50 dives for AOW and 100 dives for DM. It makes sense to me. But because we're talking about ONE rule that would apply to everyone, I have to refer to a guided shore dive I did on Kauai back in 1995 (or so?).

You have to know how to swim in order to get a OW dive cert. Your wife can't tow you around like a balloon on a string.