In defense of Casual Divers

[gregorio]

About trust me dive, lost of them seem to say it is bad in any case, but when you take a plane or a taxi, isn't it a "trust me ride"? Is it bad if i trust the DM to lead me where my experience allow me to go and to keep an eye on me ? (just a question, please don't fire me :bigun2

 

[Charlie99]

In my view a "trust me" dive is one where a diver is diving beyond his or her own limits/experience/training based on the judgement or assumed skill of the guide. That one chooses to let someone else navigate or lead or find stuff is not a "trust me" dive.

Agreed. Another way to look at a guided dive is that, if you need the guide to safely end or abort the dive, then it's a "trust me" dive.

OTOH, if the guide/DM is just there to lead you to the local points of interest, it isn't a trust me dive.

 

[MikeFerrara]

About trust me dive, lost of them seem to say it is bad in any case, but when you take a plane or a taxi, isn't it a "trust me ride"? Is it bad if i trust the DM to lead me where my experience allow me to go and to keep an eye on me ? (just a question, please don't fire me :bigun2

Whether it's bad or not is up to you. I think the important thing is to understand the situation and make an informed decision.

I don't think that's always the case either though. For example the former stududent that I mationed above who was taken through a wreck at 90 ft. By the way the dive was done, I doubt the DM was qualified for the dive. If he was, he certainly acted in a way contrary to his own training because they broke just about every accepted rule for diving in an overhead environment that there is. Yet, all those on the dive apparently trusted him anyway.

To use your example of a plane ride, you know your pilot, copilot, navigator ext are at least trained for what they are doing...or at least you can find out.

If you dive with an instructor in a class, the class must conform to training standards which you can research.

What is a DM at a resort? Are all guids on all resort or charter boats trained to the level they are guiding? Who says so? Are they working within or accountable to any standards? I can tell you right know that the agencies who's standards that I am familiar with do not have standards for guided dives that DM's are required to comply with.

You can trust any one all you want but if something goes wrong and the country you are diving in even has a court system where you can take action, they are going to argue that you as a trained and certified diver were the responsible party.

If you want to trust some one else to see to something that you are responsible for, go ahead.

 

[vondo]

In my view a "trust me" dive is one where a diver is diving beyond his or her own limits/experience/training based on the judgement or assumed skill of the guide. That one chooses to let someone else navigate or lead or find stuff is not a "trust me" dive.

I'd always thought of it as that or one in which the diver does not know the dive plan in any detail. That's not to say the diver has to help *develop* the plan, but the diver should always be aware of the plan and have a general idea of the layout of the terrain. "Just follow me" is a trust me dive, even if the following is at 30' in clear, calm seas. "Ok, on this dive we drop down to the stern at 80'. We will then take 30 minutes to make our way to bow where we find the ascent line and come up to a SS at 15'. The wreck lies east to west." is not what I consider a trust me dive (assuming the diver is experienced enough to do this).

 

[JimC]

Agreed. Another way to look at a guided dive is that, if you need the guide to safely end or abort the dive, then it's a "trust me" dive.

^

Best definition yet.

 

[ItsBruce]

My experience with snow skiing is a good example of a "trust me" dive. Back in college, my best buddy invited me skiing with his family. I had never been skiing before, but I went anyway. Since my buddy had taught me most of what I knew about computer programming, I figured he could teach me to ski. He did it on a "need to know" basis. He only told me about a technique when I absolutely needed to know it. For example, he told me how to get onto the ski lift only as we approached the front of the lift line. He told me how to get off only as we reached the point where we were to get off it. He told me how to get back to my feet only after falling on my face getting off the ski lift. He told me about snow-plowing only after I was pointed and going downhill. He told me how to turn only as I approached the edge of the run.

Being a passenger in a plane or car is not a "trust me" unless you are the pilot or driver and have no clue what you're doing, except that you are going to do what someone else tells you to do when they tell you.

When you go on a dive and have no clue when you should begin your turn or ascent other than the DM says, that's a "trust me." When you follow someone into a cave without knowing what your doing and rely on that person to get you back out, that's a "trust me."

 

[TheRedHead]

Most of the DM led dives I've participated in and have went sideways were due to a failure of gas planning. Deepish dives on an Al80, a group of divers with varying experience and SAC rates, and an unfarmiliar site for divers, some of whom have trouble finding an anchored boat.

 

[michaelb51]

I didn't mean it in a negative way and perhaps someone should offer a formal definition of a "trust me" dive. It is my understanding that if you depend on someone, particularly if they have a lot more experience, to select the site, lead the dive and navigate, you are essentially trusting them not to lead you into a dangerous situation. This is in contrast to a diver who goes to Florida and teams up with a buddy to make a dive plan on their own and navigate the site and get back to the boat safely. Perhaps someone can clarify?

"Trust Me" Dive:[in the good way] Any dive for which the Trustor is unqualified, underequipped or unprepared, and in which a Trusted diver acknowledges responsibility for the Trustor.

All instruction, IMHO, qualifies. Guides will probably not acknowledge responsibility beyond navigation, so I think by my definition would most often not qualify. For a Divemaster, I'd profer an obligation to either recognize or disclaim responsibility to each diver, on every dive. What needs to be avoided at all costs, I think, is any implicit, unspoken relationship between divers, on any dive.

"Trust Me, Dive.":[in the bad way] Any dive for which the Trustor feels unqualified, underequipped or unprepared, and in which a Trusted diver disagrees with the Trustor, who then dives anyway.

"I Trust You" Diver: Student.

.02 positive

 

[Charlie99]

"Trust Me" Dive[/B............All instruction, IMHO, qualifies.

"I Trust You" Diver: Student.

I distinguish between knowledge and experience needed to do a dive from start to finish vs. the knowledge and experience needed to safely abort the dive at any point.

Students don't have to be "trust you" divers. The very beginning of my private OW cert class was a surf entry, a swim parallel to the beach, and then treading water for several minutes, per visual signals from the instructor who stayed on the beach. He then motioned me back in. The swim, however, had taken me down to the other end of the beach and I didn't like the fact that there were rocks between my initial entry point and where he was asking me to exit. Not willing to trust him that the specific exit point he chose was safe, I just shook my head "NO", and swam back to the original entry point to body surf back in.

My attitude is that, even when under instruction, I don't abdicate responsibility for my safety, and will never get into a situation where I cannot safely end the dive by myself.

 

[michaelb51]

...
Students don't have to be "trust you" divers. ..

My attitude is that, even when under instruction, I don't abdicate responsibility for my safety, and will never get into a situation where I cannot safely end the dive by myself.

Right on.

I did suggest "I trust you," divers were implicitly students, not that students were explicitly "trust you" divers.