In defense of Casual Divers

[TheRedHead]

I've seen DM's lead groups of divers to dive sites way beyond their comfort. There are enlightened divers who don't follow DMs blindly, but many divers do expect the DM to look after them. Those are "trust me" dives. There's no doubt about it.

 

[Diver Dennis]

I agree Red. I've seen this a lot.

 

[ItsBruce]

... Paying for a DM on a dive is a trust me dive, It is the DM's job to look after you. This is a good thing, it lets divers progress in there training and skills and do more challenging dives. I bet most of us had a DM very close by when we dove our first wreck or our first night dive. And some of us did these dives on vacation in clear warm tropical waters.

I respectfully disagree. It is only a trust-me dive if you don't have the basic skills for the dive. For example, when I did the AOW deep dive, I had studied the materials and had discussed and understood the dive. The instructor was there to supervise. Same for my first night dive. Had I not understood the skills and been prepared to execute them, it would have been a trust-me dive.

 

[alcina]

Dive guide, or dive Master.
Following a guide is not a trust me dive, the guides job is to show you around and that's it. You are responsible for yourself.
Paying for a DM on a dive is a trust me dive, It is the DM's job to look after you. .

FWIW this is largely semantics in some areas. In some areas all of your guides will be DMs or higher and be talked about as DMs (or whatever). This does not make them trust me dives - it's just what things are called.

Make sure you are clear on what a "guided dive" or a "DM led" dive is - some are there to take care of you and some are there simply to help with navigation and creature spotting. No matter if the crew person is a "guide" or a "dm" it is always helpful to know each diver's role before you get in the water!

If I hired a DM for personal use, I wouldn't expect to be taken care of but rather to be shown the best areas of the dive sites and introduced to the local critters. YMMV but ask questions!

 

[tkdawg]

I myself on most dives do not like to be hearded. When you get certified and put on a tank then jump in the water has to make their own mental awareness if the dive is to much or they just don't want to be there. Remember you are going in on your acord not being forced, hopefuly. DM should be there for the people that need you. This is a great chance to teach better skills to the less-dived. On the boat give the rules and if they are violated then you must dive with DM. Reward the better divers like the poster said in an extra dive if they can. We spend a lot of money to go diving let me dive my tank and my computer. The more bottom time I have the better I fell and wife spent on diving trips. If I always have to leave in the third quater of the game I might stop paying to go. Now on drift dives I like to follow the DM. At least if we get lost I have more than one other person to talk to on the surface as we watch the boat leave. If people would stop sueing for their own problems that they caused I believe we would have even more fun on our dives.

 

[superstar]

Where does this one fit in.
You want to dive a wreck and the charter boat operator tells you that your current c-card does not qualify you to make the dive. But for a fee, you can do the dive with a DM.
Is this a trust me dive?

 

[ItsBruce]

Its not the c-card, but rather the skill set and knowledge. The op is, to some extent, concerned with liability and for that reason looks to the c-card. If you don't have the knowledge, then its a trust-me. If you do, then regardless of the c-card, it isn't. imho.

 

[Diver Dennis]

I agree Bruce.

 

[Scuba]

The hole reason I started this thread was to try get SOME people on this board to act more like MENTORS to these folks and encourage them to learn more and let them know that should they choose to try move on to the next level there will be open minded polite folks there to help them. ....... As aposed to entering into a group that is going to treat them like idiots and look down their noses at them.

You do raise some valid points.

It is not just the message but how it is delivered.

In my view, delivery styles range across the spectrum, come in all shades and colors. Sometimes a certain style seems to predominate to an extent, then after a while a different one takes over. Prevailing content viewpoints and delivery styles change, same as discussion topics come in and out vogue.

This is a discussion board where everyone's ideas get challenged at one time or another. Sometimes more tactfully than others. I agree it can be intimidating and repulsing to some newcomers at times when a simple honest question brings accusations of trolling or ridicule, instead of being taken at face value and given the benefit of the doubt. To then watch the discussion turn into a free for all strong opinions mudslinging party by the regulars discussing things barely understood can be a turn off and confusing. It's not as bad, or good, depending on one's view, as it used to be. Moderators keep discussions fairly non offensive. But, it is a discussion forum, and for one easily offended, there will always be a reason to indulge.

There is also the issue of some inescapable facts in this sport/hobby. It takes place in a non life sustaining environment. Life sustaining equipment and skills are a requirement to its relative safe practice. On the other hand, it is also very forgiving to those with poor rudimentary skills - as long as nothing goes wrong and they don't stray too far from their comfort zone. The fact you mention that you believe it is these peoples right to dive after OW training, along with how closely you observe and monitor some divers speaks for itself regarding both sides of this matter. There is also the matter of DM's with questionable judgment who want no part of any responsibility for the well being of these divers. The former not uncommon, based on my limited personal experience along with many others on this board, the latter viewpoint almost unanimous at least on this board.

This brings up the issue that there are those who would rather not hear about these matters, only about the fun and exciting part of diving. I recognize that is a valid approach for adults who understand the risks they are exposed to. Unfortunately, it appears too many OW courses and instructors concentrate on the positives while glossing over the hard unsavory facts, wether intentional or not, or as a result of their training. Result: Some new divers have a skewed understanding of the risks vs rewards equation. It's in the training materials, but if not addressed in class it is very easy to de-emphasize it, overlook it, or disregard it, when one considers the large amount of information to be processed. I think most gain a respect for the risks when they experience the unnatural sensation of breathing underwater.

You can find all sorts of deliveries and ideas in some threads, yet some will only "see" the ones they want to see. There is a fine balance between allowing respectful freedom of expression in discussions, and turning the board into a positive re-enforcement support group, probably more amenable to the learning process for most. But potentially one that will turn away some of those who would make the best mentors with the most to contribute.

In closing, while I agree with some of your points, and they do offer some good food for thought, believe me, I've drank the bitter medicine at times, tends to provide better results than denial, (What? I need to guzzle some more?) I think some of the onus is on some of the new divers who simply do not want to take the time to look into something they will only be doing a handful of times. Some would quickly loose interest regardless of approach, though less with a more positive approach overall, which is your point. One that I agree with, as long as the subject, and significance of potential risks, is thoroughly covered as well.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I've seen DM's lead groups of divers to dive sites way beyond their comfort. There are enlightened divers who don't follow DMs blindly, but many divers do expect the DM to look after them. Those are "trust me" dives. There's no doubt about it.

This was a constant source of frustration for me while I was teaching and I added all sorts of stuff to my class just to get students to be more descerning.

One student came back from vacation and told me that he was on a dive where a DM took the group through a wreck at 90 ft. They went way beyond the lighted zone. His tank was just about dry when they surfaced so they did not have adequate gas reserves, not every one had a light and they didn't use any lines.

I sleep better these days knowing that I don't have a fresh batch of students headed out to resorts next week.