inconsistency in what is advertising

[John H. Moore]

After sleeping on it and digesting Pete Murray's message to me (which he cc'd to ScubaBoard on the other thread), I'm struck by the inconsistency of the following:

- I may, under the rules expressed by Pete Murray, post the following, "Hey, I found great deals at XYZScuba.com, go check it out!" (when I'm either not at or claim to not be at XYZScuba, even though it's a commercial diving website)*

- I may not, under the rules we've been discussing since last night, post "please help me identify a bunch of fish at DivingInfoABC.com" (when I'm associated with DivingInfoABC.com, even though it's utterly non-commercial).

The first is not advertising, but the second is.

That seems to leave the door absolutely wide open to spam while shutting out useful non-commercial content.


*Pete Murray (NetDoc) said, "There can be non-solicited primary posts by someone who is not an agent of the entity like “Hey, go check out XYZDivers.com… way cool!” We believe that this type of “word of mouth” advertising by contented users is wonderful and less likely to be self serving."

 

[Mako Mark]

- I may not, under the rules we've been discussing since last night, post "please help me identify a bunch of fish at DivingInfoABC.com" (when I'm associated with DivingInfoABC.com, even though it's utterly non-commercial).
."

It does seem a little harsh as the site is non commercial and is not trying to sell anything, in fact it raises the question of how can it be advertizing if there is nothing for sale?

OTOH, if it was a commercial site, I would agree with netdoc that it is a less than truthful way to get people to your site. Not entirely dishonest, but a little misleading, however that is just business I guess, there are far worse examples on the web than a simple post on a BB.

 

[The Chairman]

There is no inconsistency here. It has to do with your definition of "advertising". www.Websters.com defines it thusly:

Main Entry: ad•ver•tise
Pronunciation: 'ad-v&r-"tIz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -tised; -tis•ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French advertiss-, stem of advertir
transitive senses
1 : to make something known to : NOTIFY
2 a : to make publicly and generally known <advertising their readiness to make concessions> b : to announce publicly especially by a printed notice or a broadcast c : to call public attention to especially by emphasizing desirable qualities so as to arouse a desire to buy or patronize : PROMOTE (From Webster’s online Dictionary… www.Websters.com)

If I call a shop and ask for a price… that is cool. I asked and they provided the answer. They have not called my house, and in fact, I solicited them for the answer. In the same way, we allow divers to ask about the best place to dive or who makes the best mask, etc, etc. We do NOT consider the response to a question as “advertisement”.

If a shop calls me to tell of their latest deal then THAT is unsolicited advertising. I just hate phone spam, don’t you? In the same way, we do not let shops groups, or other sites spam our site asking others to patronize them. If they are looking for the best dive shop in XYZ then they will ask. If they need help IDing a fish then they will also ask. It is incredibly hard for us to always be able to determine who is “Good” and who is “Bad”. So in trying to allow SOME good advertisers on and stop the OTHER bad advertisers, we end up beating our head on the transom. OUCH! Thanks anyway, but our solution is just not allow this kind of thing.

If a satisfied user who is NOT being compensated or manipulated tells me about a wonderful dive he with on XYZDivers, then that is not an advertisement, but a testimonial. That is how ScubaBoard was born. Divers talking to divers about diving. What a concept! We encourage ALL divers (except those who are agents of an entity) to post their experiences, good and bad! AND, if he posts something bad about XYZDivers, we fully expect them to defend themselves. In fact, we have gone out of our way to ensure that all sides of a story get told!

I hope that this helps.

 

[Boogie711]

John raises good points. In fact, if one were to probe deeper, it can be said that the first example ("Hey, I found great deals at XYX Scuba, check it out") is allowed because it's used to attract XYZ to advertise and spend money at Scubaboard, or in some similar cases, is encouraged as a paid ad on Scubaboard.

The second has no potential to make Scubaboard any money. There are a number of cases on here where Scubaboard directly profits from commercial postings, but they are not identified as such. But when it's scubaboard sanctioned, it's apparently not considered spam. See - http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?threadid=55857&s= as an example, or http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?threadid=44555&s= .

I'm not trying to pick on Pete, just pointing out how simple it is to cross a line. Especially since Scubaboard openly decided to cross that line (into commercial advertising) and is now trying to prevent others from doing the same.

 

[The Chairman]

BTW,

a VERY effective way to promote (advertise) your commercial or non-comercial venture is to put it in your signature line! Just click here => Edit Signature to accomplish this task!

 

[The Chairman]

I'm not trying to pick on Pete, just pointing out how simple it is to cross a line. Especially since Scubaboard openly decided to cross that line (into commercial advertising) and is now trying to prevent others from doing the same.

You lost me there, Boogie. Just how am I doing that when I have created a site for FREE advertising in the Market Place (commercial and non-commercial) and am now allowing all trips (commercial and non-commercial) to be posted in the "Trips and Happenings" forum in each Dive Club. Yeah those free services are real money makers for me and the board.

It's certainly easier to criticise than to find merit. Some seem to excel in that. www.ScubBoard.com almost came to an end this time last year. I presume you would rather that we had ceased to be than to have "crossed the line", eh? It still costs you nothing to come here and avail yourself of a TON of info. I guess you just can't please everyone. Oh well.

 

[redacted]

There is no inconsistency here.
I hope that this helps.

It may be consistent, but it would seem to have some undesirable implications. I just submitted an o-ring order to air-oil. They asked where I heard of them. I told them scubaboard.com. I was not advertising. But if you did the same thing, you could be construed as "advertising". Your line is fairly clear and I don't have any improvement to suggest. But it may have some undesirable impacts.

 

[The Chairman]

So AWAP... are you glad you heard of air-oil??? I am sure you are. Have they EVER heard of us? Possibly now that you told them where you heard of them.

Obviously a very satisfied diver has mentioned them in a post somewhere... no spam, no advertisement involved. AWAP is happy (though he indicates that this may have some "undesirable impacts") and I am certain that air-oil (whoever they are) are happy with the sale.

However, I am sure that Boogey will come up with some diabolical collusion betwixt air-oil and myself. Me being so corrupt and all.

 

[Boogie711]

Pete - please don't get your shorts in a knot. I'm simply pointing out that you can't sleep with the devil of commercial advertising without noticing the false teeth in the jar come morning.

Want a suggestion, rather than a criticism? I would suggest that when someone pays for special treatment on the board that such treatment be flagged to the average user. Perhaps it's a different colour font in the thread title... or an asterisk or something. When you see an "advertorial" in a newspaper, even those have a line in there about "This is a commercial advertisement."

Otherwise, your delineation by forums (whether a post is in "Market Place" or not) is relatively meaningless for the majority of users like myself who hit a new posts button. I don't see what forum a post is in - I merely see that it has been made. I have set up a special search function and bookmarked it in my browser so that I don't see entire forums which don't interest me (solo diving, for example) but otherwise, by default, I see it.

How's this for another suggestion - if you still think John was doing wrong and was advertising, why wouldn't the moderators simply move the post into the "Market Place" section?

 

[The Chairman]

In the market place the ONLY thing you can purchase (rather reasonably too) is a sticky! My opinion is never paid for. Once the sticky expires, it drops into the heap with the rest.

But Boogie, you have accused me of being biased against non-profits and for profits. I find that HIGHLY inflammatory and DESIGNED to get my "shorts in a knot". Why not take my reasoning at face value and leave it at that? If you feel that I may have ulterior motives, then a private message would be best... unless of course you are merely trying to stir the pot or have some other agenda.