Innovation in diving

[JustinRyan]

So the above is what said about a compass but then you post a rant about how you use a compass to survey a cave. So what will your next BS reply be? Oh, and don't forget that you started the whole compass part of this discussion.

---------- Post added January 16th, 2014 at 09:17 PM ----------

"P.S. For those not familiar with cave diving, lines in caves are secured to fixed points in the caves and set taught, same as if you went around your garden and secured a line tight (not loose) at various points to the fence, stones, walls... Often, as in my case, the line is pre-marked every 5 meter distance on land before laying it in the cave. Then to survey the cave, compass bearing, distance, and depths are taken at each point where the line is secured on the cave. Lateral distances to the cave walls are taken from those points as well, and a cave chart is then drawn, often using software (I use Vtopo). A compass is not required to navigate in a cave, and as a matter of fact, it is dangerous to use a compass in place of a cave guideline."


My God you never give up. Please do not BS these people! Not all lines are nice and taught like you just placed them in your garden. Some are on the floor of the cave, some are attached to the ceiling and some are attached to the side of the caves...all within the same system. I will agree that the lines are as tight as we can get them but they do get lose and some break. Why do you thing that there is a line committee in Fla. I will ask you agree that all material contracts and expands with stress and or temps. Yes even cement, metal etc.

What type of line do you use for caves (i.e. Dacron, 24# Nylon)? I'm curious about how much expansion occurs with small changes in temp and tension. Dacron and nylon have different Young's Modulus and Linear expansion coefficients.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

#18, #24 and 36 are usual for temp lines and 72 braided nylon line or 4 mm for the gold line. With the #24 you get very little strech and it will retract to about it's origianal length. With the nylon it will streach but limited.

spring tunnel / loose line

Madison Blue, please check the Godzilla line

 

[gianaameri]

What type of line do you use for caves (i.e. Dacron, 24# Nylon)? I'm curious about how much expansion occurs with small changes in temp and tension. Dacron and nylon have different Young's Modulus and Linear expansion coefficients.

The caves I dive have little or no flow, and constant temperature (other than for the surface water at the entrance) of 20C all year round.

There is both nylon and polypropylene lines (possibly other materials) in some of the caves I dive and of various dimensions. Some maybe mm. 6 in diameter.

The early explorers felt that a line placed/fixed on the ceiling and in any event floating (i.e. polypropelene, usually the thicker ones) including in case it were to come loose/cut would be safer (i.e. easier to find and requiring a lower gas consumption with better vis. lower depth up top) than one placed/fixed near the bottom of the cave (i.e. deeper) and of a material (i.e. nylon) which would sink if it were to come loose/cut.

Lines require occasional/regular maintenance and are constantly checked as one dives them and repaired as necessary (i.e. no one goes further in until the line is made safe on the spot, and if need be dive is aborted to go back later to repair the line).

Generally, once the line is secured taugth (not loose) to several strong points (substantial rocks, formations...) not too far one from the other and is of suitable material/dimensions for the environment, seasonal variations due to change in water temperature are immaterial to safety.

Different places, different theories!

P.S. On land when the line I use is pre-marked at 5 meter intervals, it is stretched (as it would be when deployed in a cave from secure point to secure point) before the markings are applied.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

P.S. On land when the line I use is pre-marked at 5 meter intervals, it is stretched (as it would be when deployed in a cave from secure point to secure point) before the markings are applied.

I thought that you said it it does not stretch? Please keep it coming.

 

[gianaameri]

I thought that you said it it does not stretch? Please keep it coming.

Boooooring!

Look, going diving tomorrow to do the dive I missed on last time (the longer penetration one).

I am going to turn upside down in my arm Dive Computer and Bottom Timer and every time I'll habitually look at my arm and find the electronics upside down I'll be thinking and laughing about you!

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Boooooring!

Look, going diving tomorrow to do the dive I missed on last time (the longer penetration one).

I am going to turn upside down in my arm Dive Computer and Bottom Timer and every time I'll habitually look at my arm and find the electronics upside down I'll be thinking and laughing about you!

If you have a good computer just press the flip screen button. Have fun diving and I am glad that you saw the error of your ways and you are using DG/BT. So everytime you look at your computer you will think of me? Weird. Anyway that's for playing it safe. Let's close this thread.

 

[gianaameri]

If you have a good computer just press the flip screen button. Have fun diving and I am glad that you saw the error of your ways and you are using DG/BT. So everytime you look at your computer you will think of me? Weird. Anyway that's for playing it safe. Let's close this thread.

I flip the computer opposite side of my arm, so I can't see it - flip the whole thing, not just the display (same as not having one cause it is facing the wrong way down towards the bottom of the cave as opposed as up towards my mask).

Let us not close the thread yet... you keep on thinking and let me know when you are finished thinking what purpose a "DG/BT" would have served in my specific dive on that specific day.

What could have gone wrong (i.e. the first step in risk management 101) on the dive that day that a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have made a difference?

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

I flip the computer opposite side of my arm, so I can't see it - flip the whole thing, not just the display (same as not having one cause it is facing the wrong way down towards the bottom of the cave as opposed as up towards my mask).

Let us not close the thread yet... you keep on thinking and let me know when you are finished thinking what purpose a "DG/BT" would have served in my specific dive on that specific day.

What could have gone wrong (i.e. the first step in risk management 101) on the dive that day that a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have made a difference?

It would have prevented you from breaking known standards and safe diving practices of every major dive organization recognized and it would have prevented (once again) you looking like a complete clown on a public forum. It would have also set a good example to other divers that read these threads not knowing your tendency to perform such feats of marginal risk management. Let's not even get into the bandwidth wasted that your nonsense has caused over the course of several unrelated topics in the past few months.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Let us not close the thread yet... you keep on thinking and let me know when you are finished thinking what purpose a "DG/BT" would have served in my specific dive on that specific day.

What could have gone wrong (i.e. the first step in risk management 101) on the dive that day that a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have made a difference?

So you posted a report of your dive without a bottom timer or depth gauge. Then you try to justify the dive by saying you knew the system, having dived it hundreds of times, but went to a section unknown to you. You then try to say and teach that it is a lined cave with known distance and depths marked on it. Then you try to convince everybody that the lines are more accurate than computers. Then you bring into the conversation a compass which you consider useless until I question you about survey. Then we both added our inputs pertaining to lines and if they strech or not. I said that they did and you said that they did not. (Because we all know that if I am right then it blows everything that you have added about the dive to a big fat pile of BS). Now you want to go back to the begining and question why a computer, bottom timer and depth gauge might have saved you life. Well I am at the point of questioning 1) why would anyone want to save your life and 2) why would anyone risk their life in recovering your body?
I'll say it again for all to read. I have more respect for the father and son, who both died on Christmas day, who were idiots and they did not know better than you who knows better but decides the rules do not apply. They were idiots but you are clearly stupid.
So when are you heading to Eagle's Nest?

 

[gianaameri]

So you posted a report of your dive without a bottom timer or depth gauge. Then you try to justify the dive by saying you knew the system, having dived it hundreds of times, but went to a section unknown to you. You then try to say and teach that it is a lined cave with known distance and depths marked on it. Then you try to convince everybody that the lines are more accurate than computers. Then you bring into the conversation a compass which you consider useless until I question you about survey. Then we both added our inputs pertaining to lines and if they strech or not. I said that they did and you said that they did not. (Because we all know that if I am right then it blows everything that you have added about the dive to a big fat pile of BS). Now you want to go back to the begining and question why a computer, bottom timer and depth gauge might have saved you life. Well I am at the point of questioning 1) why would anyone want to save your life and 2) why would anyone risk their life in recovering your body?
I'll say it again for all to read. I have more respect for the father and son, who both died on Christmas day, who were idiots and they did not know better than you who knows better but decides the rules do not apply. They were idiots but you are clearly stupid.
So when are you heading to Eagle's Nest?

When I am finished exploring the caves I am working on I will consider where to go next.

You have done everything except addressing the core issue.

A Dive Computer/Bottom Timer is a measuring device. It tells you time and depth. From that, either by way of using tables (i.e. Mvplan, Vplanner...) or the Deco functions of the dive computer, you can plan a safe ascent.

It is essential 99.999% of the times (i.e. where you do not know the depth, and where you do not know the profile you will be running...).

In a cave there is a line which defines the profile you will be diving. The cave has been surveyed and mapped and the depth and distances are known waypoint to waypoint. These can be verified to be correct by the use of a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer (and other useful tools).

Distances are given by a cave survey line pre-marked at the surface at 5 meter intervals. When marking the line, the line is set taught between two point 5 meter distant one from the other, so that any stretch or give inherent in the line is taken into account.

So, I know depth at the various waypoints, and I know distance between the waypoints, and I have done that dive more than 400 times (with Dive Computer/Bottom Timer), and at 12 meter average depth following that profile with the limited supply of gas I have on N32 I cannot enter into a deco situation (including if I make an intermediate ascent to visually explore a dry chamber as I did that dive, that day).

What risk exactly have I incurred in that specific dive on that specific day by not having a Dive computer/Bottom Timer?

What could have a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer done to help in an emergency, and which emergency exactly?

---------- Post added January 24th, 2014 at 01:54 AM ----------

It would have prevented you from breaking known standards and safe diving practices of every major dive organization recognized and it would have prevented (once again) you looking like a complete clown on a public forum. It would have also set a good example to other divers that read these threads not knowing your tendency to perform such feats of marginal risk management. Let's not even get into the bandwidth wasted that your nonsense has caused over the course of several unrelated topics in the past few months.

Yep, on that day and that dive broke Scuba 101 rule (full admission, and no shame or fear to say, no tears and no regrets either), but it did not add risk to my specific dive on that specific day (if it did, happy to learn exactly how).

On the other end, there are many many divers and instructors who do not walk the talk and do break rules all the times and this puts them and the dive team at risk, and sometimes people die too (and when this happens it is all kept as quiet as possible).

Sometimes these same instructors end up dead too.

I broke a rule on that day and on that dive and can explain and defend why (i.e. substance over form, as opposed as form over substance). It is possible I made an error of judgement on that day in my risk assessment for that dive (a calculated risk), but thus far not one person has been able to tell me exactly what risk I have incurred on that dive on that day by not having a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer (again no chance I could have gone in deco).

Divers and instructors regularly break rules and doing so increases risk for them and possibly others (they just do not talk about it because they have something to hide...).