Innovation in diving

[nimoh]

Don't take it off, please!

I won't. Thanks.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

It is a big deal mentally to do the dive I did because of the pre-conceived ideas which have been drilled in our mind since Scuba 101.

You really did not plan this dive. You simply got to the site, realised that you forgot your computers and chose to dive anyway. You got away with it and now what to do some chest pounding while yelling, "I am so damn good and look what I can do."

If you think out-of-the-box and are adaptive, then you realise a pre-marked line can be a better Dive Computer/Bottom Timer than any electronic device (better than some Tec computer I used for sure). In any event it is a means for cross-referencing/checking between electronics and line markings when under normal circumstances carry Dive Computer/Bottom Timer.

There is no way a line can be better. Lines strech and contract but not computers. Maybe you should invest in some better computers.

If the first instance, though, in a cave the cave line has to be there.

Every cave has a line! It is either a line placed by past divers or the one you are laying now.

Then, depths and distances have to be marked in the cartography and you need to have verified those personally.

Then, you need to have a good understanding of your times to cover those distances at various paces, as well a good understanding of the cave morphology.

Which I am sure you knew all of this prior to the dive which you even went to an area unknown / verified by you. How could you have ever "personally verified" a line to an area that you have never been to before?

Take a compass, for example. Aborigines don't have one, yet they can travel long distances back and forth without getting lost. Some islanders (cant' remember who) can do the same at sea!

Knowing an area that you have been living in all your life, getting around is simple. Not the same as being in a foreign area. I know the woods behind my childhood home like the back of my hand....but not the same as mountains, deserts or forest of another state. I studied and taught land nav. to my Marines so I know what I am talking about. No one calls for heavy fire on an area that they "think" that they are in.

To me, it was an experience worth living.

And keep pushing it and it maybe it will be an experience that you want live through.

It frees your mind and makes you more comfortable should one day look at your arm to discover Dive Computer/Bottom Timer is dead/gone - awesome and memorable dive!

If I look at my arm and discover that my computer has been lost or broken, I use my second computer as I am exiting the cave.

---------- Post added January 16th, 2014 at 12:25 AM ----------

I will argue you are argumentative and a pain.

Definitely unnecessary and dispensable.

Something I'd forget in the garage with pleasure.

Really? It seems that every underwater cave survey class (NSS-CDS, NACD, etc.) requires a compass. Which class did you take?

 

[gianaameri]

Originally Posted by gianaameriIt is a big deal mentally to do the dive I did because of the pre-conceived ideas which have been drilled in our mind since Scuba 101.

You really did not plan this dive. You simply got to the site, realised that you forgot your computers and chose to dive anyway. You got away with it and now what to do some chest pounding while yelling, "I am so damn good and look what I can do."

If you think out-of-the-box and are adaptive, then you realise a pre-marked line can be a better Dive Computer/Bottom Timer than any electronic device (better than some Tec computer I used for sure). In any event it is a means for cross-referencing/checking between electronics and line markings when under normal circumstances carry Dive Computer/Bottom Timer.

There is no way a line can be better. Lines strech and contract but not computers. Maybe you should invest in some better computers.

If the first instance, though, in a cave the cave line has to be there.

Every cave has a line! It is either a line placed by past divers or the one you are laying now.

Then, depths and distances have to be marked in the cartography and you need to have verified those personally.

Then, you need to have a good understanding of your times to cover those distances at various paces, as well a good understanding of the cave morphology.

Which I am sure you knew all of this prior to the dive which you even went to an area unknown / verified by you. How could you have ever "personally verified" a line to an area that you have never been to before?

Take a compass, for example. Aborigines don't have one, yet they can travel long distances back and forth without getting lost. Some islanders (cant' remember who) can do the same at sea!

Knowing an area that you have been living in all your life, getting around is simple. Not the same as being in a foreign area. I know the woods behind my childhood home like the back of my hand....but not the same as mountains, deserts or forest of another state. I studied and taught land nav. to my Marines so I know what I am talking about. No one calls for heavy fire on an area that they "think" that they are in.

To me, it was an experience worth living.

And keep pushing it and it maybe it will be an experience that you want live through.

It frees your mind and makes you more comfortable should one day look at your arm to discover Dive Computer/Bottom Timer is dead/gone - awesome and memorable dive!



If I look at my arm and discover that my computer has been lost or broken, I use my second computer as I am exiting the cave.

---------- Post added January 16th, 2014 at 12:25 AM ----------

Originally Posted by gianaameri
I will argue you are argumentative and a pain.

Definitely unnecessary and dispensable.

Something I'd forget in the garage with pleasure.



Really? It seems that every underwater cave survey class (NSS-CDS, NACD, etc.) requires a compass. Which class did you take?

Every cave has a line?

The line stretches and contract?

Ridiculous!

You are rambling unable to find a single thing/situation where a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have prevented an emergency or saved me during that dive.

P.S. For those not familiar with cave diving, lines in caves are secured to fixed points in the caves and set taught, same as if you went around your garden and secured a line tight (not loose) at various points to the fence, stones, walls... Often, as in my case, the line is pre-marked every 5 meter distance on land before laying it in the cave. Then to survey the cave, compass bearing, distance, and depths are taken at each point where the line is secured on the cave. Lateral distances to the cave walls are taken from those points as well, and a cave chart is then drawn, often using software (I use Vtopo). A compass is not required to navigate in a cave, and as a matter of fact, it is dangerous to use a compass in place of a cave guideline.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Gianaameri, have you ever considered the reason why you are at odds in nearly every discussion on every forum you participate in might be because your logic and statements all over the place?

It seems "being wrong" just isn't enough for you.

The comedic value is waning. It might be time to find another activity.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

I will argue you are argumentative and a pain.

Definitely unnecessary and dispensable.

Something I'd forget in the garage with pleasure.

So the above is what said about a compass but then you post a rant about how you use a compass to survey a cave. So what will your next BS reply be? Oh, and don't forget that you started the whole compass part of this discussion.

---------- Post added January 16th, 2014 at 09:17 PM ----------

"P.S. For those not familiar with cave diving, lines in caves are secured to fixed points in the caves and set taught, same as if you went around your garden and secured a line tight (not loose) at various points to the fence, stones, walls... Often, as in my case, the line is pre-marked every 5 meter distance on land before laying it in the cave. Then to survey the cave, compass bearing, distance, and depths are taken at each point where the line is secured on the cave. Lateral distances to the cave walls are taken from those points as well, and a cave chart is then drawn, often using software (I use Vtopo). A compass is not required to navigate in a cave, and as a matter of fact, it is dangerous to use a compass in place of a cave guideline."


My God you never give up. Please do not BS these people! Not all lines are nice and taught like you just placed them in your garden. Some are on the floor of the cave, some are attached to the ceiling and some are attached to the side of the caves...all within the same system. I will agree that the lines are as tight as we can get them but they do get lose and some break. Why do you thing that there is a line committee in Fla. I will ask you agree that all material contracts and expands with stress and or temps. Yes even cement, metal etc.

 

[ScubaToneDog]

Where can I find the VTOPO software. I Googled it but couldn't find it online.

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[TONY CHANEY]

Where can I find the VTOPO software. I Googled it but couldn't find it online.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Try Visual topo

 

[gianaameri]

So the above is what said about a compass but then you post a rant about how you use a compass to survey a cave. So what will your next BS reply be? Oh, and don't forget that you started the whole compass part of this discussion.

---------- Post added January 16th, 2014 at 09:17 PM ----------

"P.S. For those not familiar with cave diving, lines in caves are secured to fixed points in the caves and set taught, same as if you went around your garden and secured a line tight (not loose) at various points to the fence, stones, walls... Often, as in my case, the line is pre-marked every 5 meter distance on land before laying it in the cave. Then to survey the cave, compass bearing, distance, and depths are taken at each point where the line is secured on the cave. Lateral distances to the cave walls are taken from those points as well, and a cave chart is then drawn, often using software (I use Vtopo). A compass is not required to navigate in a cave, and as a matter of fact, it is dangerous to use a compass in place of a cave guideline."


My God you never give up. Please do not BS these people! Not all lines are nice and taught like you just placed them in your garden. Some are on the floor of the cave, some are attached to the ceiling and some are attached to the side of the caves...all within the same system. I will agree that the lines are as tight as we can get them but they do get lose and some break. Why do you thing that there is a line committee in Fla. I will ask you agree that all material contracts and expands with stress and or temps. Yes even cement, metal etc.

So, let us stick to the topic (and NO I am not interested in discussing compass and caves... and nope I don't carry a compass other than for when I do a topography survey of the cave).

Care to tell me exactly what emergency/problem a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have resolved/prevented in the cave dive I did subject of this discussion (or accept that in your wildest imagination you cannot come up with a single relevant "what if" scenario)?

P.S. "These people" can see for themselves what cave lines look like here: http://vimeo.com/slawekpacko .

 

[alewar]

Where can I find the VTOPO software. I Googled it but couldn't find it online.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

You can download it from http://vtopo.free.fr

 

[ScubaToneDog]

Thanks Gian and Ale war. My filters didn't allow it to find it in French. Much appreciated.

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