Instructor Responsibilty in Continuing Education (Split from Catalina Death)

[Thalassamania]

Sorry, it was indeed, I thought transparently, a reductum ad absurdum, made with the sole purpose of pointing out the initial absurdity. Sort of like Swift's Modest Proposal.

... I know that sounds like I am equating the cost of doing business with the value of human life ... but the reality is that we do need local dive shops and equipment manufacturers to keep this sport/hobby/obsession going.

Since I didn't say any of that I will let it go. But to answer your question: none.

???

I'm glad to hear that you are not willing to kill any, there we have a firm common ground.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Right, by "your" I meant the Scripps courses you teach and promote.

There a *LOT* of room between week end BOW course and the 100 Scripps course.

Churning out barely trained divers in order to sell them their first set of gear hasn't been all that great for the industry.

How many of these new divers scare themselves silly on their first dive out side of class and throw in the towel?

How many just don't really have any fun because of their lack of confidence and quit diving?

Fewer, better trained divers that actually keep diving will, IMO help to grow the sport, as current active divers are the main evangelists for the sport.

100 hour classes for everybody? Probably not, but it's hard to argue that longer, more though classes have no merit.

Tobin

 

[Thalassamania]

Tobin, you're right on the money. How much less than 100 hours? I don't know ... if I had to hip-shoot, I'd aim at about 60 hours with six to eight dives.

 

[dadediver]

Tobin, you're right on the money. How much less than 100 hours? I don't know ... if I had to hip-shoot, I'd aim at about 60 hours with six to eight dives.

Sorry Thal, you are not qualified to say this.

 

[Thalassamania]

No one is, we'd need to actually field test the course and look at the results, as I said, "If I had to hip-shoot, I'd aim at about 60 hours with six to eight dives."

 

[dadediver]

No one is, we'd need to actually field test the course and look at the results, as I said, "If I had to hip-shoot, I'd aim at about 60 hours with six to eight dives."

From your profile and your post, I would say you are very qualified in setting up a scuba training program.

What I was refering to (tongue in cheek) was you being qualified to shot from the hip. Those NRA basic pistol courses really lowered their standards over the years and more and more people has been shooting themselves in thier feet lately.

 

[openmindOW]

. . . I, and my colleagues, somehow manage to train the divers that we have so that they become the divers we wish them to be. Every instructor, ultimately, has that option if they want to take it, they just can't do it at most of your local dive shops.

Thall, I appreciate what you are saying.

Thall, I woud like to return, if I may, to the question of so-called Advanced Classes.

I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I would respectfully like to engage in a little intellectual discussion. Let me give you this hypothetical.

A grad student approaches you and makes the following offer to you:

"Thall, I have heard good things about your course. Alas, I don't have the time or money for it, but I got YMCA certified 3 years ago. I have 33 dives in the last 3 years. I plan to keep diving. I am considering taking a so-called "advanced" class. I have several questions for you. First, would you recommend that I take an advanced class? If so, which agency? Would you teach me? I don't really care if I get a card, but that would be nice. I have 3 days and would like to learn; I woud like to learn in Open Water. Would you train me? If so, would you train me in Open Water? Will you give me a cert card at the end?"

What is your answer to this student?

 

[openmindOW]

The success, or failure, of Dive Shops is not really my concern. Since most of them claim to not even break even on training and air fills, the only real question is how much gear will new divers buy. Add up what your local shop would charge for OW, Advanced, Rescue, Master Diver, Nitrox, two or three specialty courses, Oxygen Administration, First Aid and CPR and I think you'll find that even with what I'm charging now, my program is a bargain, at least for someone who is committed to becoming an active diver (e.g., twelve or more local dives per year). I see the shop programs that chop up what I do into many, many separately priced products as antibiotics that are only available in partial dosages. How many divers complete their entire course of treatment? How many are left incompletely trained with some sop like, "it's only a learners permit so be careful?"

Thall, you raise good points here. There are a lot of issues that could be addressed there.

First, you're correct in questioning the entire dive shop business model. But that's a whole other topic.

Second, divers have to begin somewhere, right? We all began somewhere. I started out as a YMCA diver. It was a learner's permit. Over the years, over a lot of "advanced" classes, and years of dive experience, I got a lot better.

I agree with you, Thall, that the first class should produce a good, safe diver. Absolutely.

But I am okay with the Learner's Permit approach - at least for now. I'm open-minded to the idea that maybe the Leanrer's Permit approach is not a good idea.

 

[watboy]

It does, indeed, sound to me like you are willing to kill off people to assure that, at a minimum, the status quo of the diving industry is maintained. I liked to dive before the industry existed and I would continue to like it if the industry (at least as we know it) goes away, it is not worth one single life to me. How many is it worth to you?

Ok, nothing to do with diving. But this is not an appropriate argument for policy change. Any industry, activity or event with any accidental deaths, one can always argue that nothing is worth the cost of a single life. But the only way you can be precisely 100% certain that there are no recreational scuba deaths is to ban scuba diving. The "how many lives is it worth?" is an emotional argument that gives you no rational guidance (think the movement against vaccinations). Its like asking someone how much they would pay to not die tomorrow; there's no answer to that question that lets you formulate policy. Its only use in a debate is to frame opponents as being Pro-Death. A more useful question is how much would you pay to reduce the chances of you dying tomorrow by 1%. Consumers and businesses have decided that some/most of advancements in diving technology and knowledge over the prior decades be spent by lowering the cost of diving rather than lowering the risk.

 

[Thalassamania]

From your profile and your post, I would say you are very qualified in setting up a scuba training program.

What I was refering to (tongue in cheek) was you being qualified to shot from the hip. Those NRA basic pistol courses really lowered their standards over the years and more and more people has been shooting themselves in thier feet lately.

Thall, I appreciate what you are saying.

Thall, I woud like to return, if I may, to the question of so-called Advanced Classes.

I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I would respectfully like to engage in a little intellectual discussion. Let me give you this hypothetical.

A grad student approaches you and makes the following offer to you:

"Thall, I have heard good things about your course. Alas, I don't have the time or money for it, but I got YMCA certified 3 years ago. I have 33 dives in the last 3 years. I plan to keep diving. I am considering taking a so-called "advanced" class. I have several questions for you. First, would you recommend that I take an advanced class?

Do you mean to dive recreationaly (in which case I'll give you the phone numbers of several great recreational instructors) or do you need to dive under institutional auspices (let's assume the latter).

If so, which agency? Would you teach me?

Agency is irrelevant ... if you need to dive under institutional auspices you will need the approval of the Diving Control Board, the first step toward that is completion of a Diving Duty Medical Exam and then you will need to document 100 hours of training as well has have me sign off on your skills. Then the DSB can act on your application. You best move, since you will need buddies for your research, is to take the next course. If your schedule will not permit that, I am willing to do a pool checkout and provide you with a detailed memo as to what your additional training will need to be. That training maybe conducted by me, or with DCB approval, by one or more members of our training staff, but in any case, I will perform the final evaluation and make the final recommendation. Here are the chapters in the NOAA Manual and the UNESCO International Code of Scientific Diving Practice, call me with any questions. When you are ready we can set up a written exam.

I don't really care if I get a card, but that would be nice. I have 3 days and would like to learn;

I don't think I can help you. You have to be able to document 100 hours of training.

I woud like to learn in Open Water. Would you train me?

Sorry, no.

If so, would you train me in Open Water? Will you give me a cert card at the end?"

OW is not a problem for me, but I will not operate under those sorts of constraints, in any case I am not permitted to do so by both Federal and Institutional regulations.

Thall, you raise good points here. There are a lot of issues that could be addressed there.

First, you're correct in questioning the entire dive shop business model. But that's a whole other topic.

Second, divers have to begin somewhere, right? We all began somewhere. I started out as a YMCA diver. It was a learner's permit. Over the years, over a lot of "advanced" classes, and years of dive experience, I got a lot better.

I agree with you, Thall, that the first class should produce a good, safe diver. Absolutely.

But I am okay with the Learner's Permit approach - at least for now. I'm open-minded to the idea that maybe the Leanrer's Permit approach is not a good idea.

I think the learner's permit argument is an industry cop out. Of course you keep learning, but a learners permit is predicated on performing the actual function ONLY when accompanied by someone who is more competent than you are, diver certification is for similar conditions with a SIMILARLY TRAINED AND SKILLED BUDDDY!

Ok, nothing to do with diving. But this is not an appropriate argument for policy change. Any industry, activity or event with any accidental deaths, one can always argue that nothing is worth the cost of a single life. But the only way you can be precisely 100% certain that there are no recreational scuba deaths is to ban scuba diving. The "how many lives is it worth?" is an emotional argument that gives you no rational guidance (think the movement against vaccinations). Its like asking someone how much they would pay to not die tomorrow; there's no answer to that question that lets you formulate policy. Its only use in a debate is to frame opponents as being Pro-Death. A more useful question is how much would you pay to reduce the chances of you dying tomorrow by 1%. Consumers and businesses have decided that some/most of advancements in diving technology and knowledge over the prior decades be spent by lowering the cost of diving rather than lowering the risk.

I was not trying to frame the argument in terms of pro or anti death. I was trying to show the absurdity of the argument and I guess my sarcasm tabs did not show.