Instructors - Agencies Split from overweight

[Missdirected]

I disagree it was pristine all day. I personally stayed close to the floor that day as the current was rushing more than normal on the reef that day. There were also storms around that day, contrary to what another poster stated. There is one pic in the condolences thread of coming in.. it was much later but you can see the sky had been angry and that was the case all day out there - off and on.

 

[JCAT]

The post from Colliam7 was logical and to the point. There is much missing information concerning this death and I doubt the whole story has been told as of yet.

 

[Walter]

Why would you? You both have the same view of the agencies and it comes out in your posts. You are so inured to it that you simply can not see your bias.

I see where Mike has made 9 posts in this thread (have I missed some?) in 189, he did not dicuss this accident, nor in 196 or 207, or 209, 210, 215. Those were all about children diving with parents. In 216, he explained why some instructors get an undeserved bad rap. In 217 he told of a short coming he sees in some standards. In 220, he explained, in response to a question, exactly what he meant in 217.

In 221, you claimed he was bashing agencies, but you didn't back up your claim with facts, even after you were asked to produce them. The facts don't support your view. If I'm mistaken, pull out the standards and show us. We're willing to look at facts. Please show me where I'm wrong. Please show me where Mike is wrong.

Where do you see these implications that Mike said this poor young woman was under trained? We know nothing of her training. Anything we say about her training good or bad is pure speculation and has no place in this thread. If anyone has said anything about it, I've missed it. If you've seen where Mike has implied it, please quote it and point it out.

You are so inured to it that you simply can not see your bias.

Can you see yours? I've always thought of you as open to discussion. I've always thought of you as supporting quality training. It appears you have recently decided that quality is no longer something to be desired. I know there has to be another explanation, because that is not the Pete I know and love.

 

[Walter]

Bull. NAUI requires that I do just this.

More Bull. NAUI tells me if they aren't fit to dive with my grandma, they are not fit to dive.

This has NOTHING to do with the death of this panicked diver and yet you keep trying to prove that no agency has sufficient standards.

Pete, he is referring to PADI standards. NAUI standards are very different.

We don't know what has to do with the death of this unfortunate young woman. We don't know what training she did or did not recieve, We don't know. Saying her training is a fault is wrong, because we don't know. On the other hand, saying it had nothing to do with her death is also wrong. We simply do not know. In fairness to Mike, he has never discussed the cause of this accident.

 

[The Chairman]

If you've seen where Mike has implied it, please quote it and point it out.

You've done a FINE job at pointing out his posts and glossing over what he said: He excused the "poor job" done by the instructors how??? BY POINTING TO THE LOUSY STANDARDS OF THE AGENCIES. Now, I can ask you when did you stop beating your mother and what does that do? IT IMPLIES THAT YOU BEAT YOUR MOTHER.

Now, if standards are not the issue here (and they clearly aren't), then DROP THEM from your arguments.

Can you see yours?

Of course I can Walter. I am biased against a myriad of ways that are used to IMPLY that the agencies are severely flawed by talking about how "flawed training" and/or "overweighting students" caused this accident. I find the accusations spurious, misguided and mean spirited.

I've always thought of you as open to discussion.

Do I have to agree with you to show that I am OPEN to discussion? In what ways have I sought to LIMIT discussion here? Have I edited any comments or made any threats? I have to admit that I resent THIS implication but I will not ask you to take it back.

I've always thought of you as supporting quality training. It appears you have recently decided that quality is no longer something to be desired. I know there has to be another explanation, because that is not the Pete I know and love.

Et tu Walter? I simply do not agree with the dour attitude towards current training. But now I am being heralded as the clarion for poor training. Words escape me at that bizarre conclusion.

For those with an open mind to my message: I fully support a quality dive training program that meets the needs and the desires of the student. I do not support an indiscriminate condemnation of the agencies, their standards OR their instructors due to this one incident on Molasses reef. There is not enough evidence to conclude that training was either a primary or contributing factor in this incident.

 

[Azza]

The PADI OW course standards don't state any performance requirements for the tour portion of the dive. The student can bounce and crawl through it and meet the requirements of the standards.

From the PADI 2007 manual
Swim underwater with scuba equipment while maintaining control of both
direction and depth, properly equalizing the ears and mask to accommodate
depth changes.

 

[RiverRat]

From the PADI 2007 manual
Swim underwater with scuba equipment while maintaining control of both
direction and depth, properly equalizing the ears and mask to accommodate
depth changes.

He's gotcha there Mike I'd have to blame the instructor if they let a diver crawl around on the tour.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Who says they have to maintain neutral buoyancy and hover?
I can maintain depth if I'm crawling on the bottom.

 

[scubapolly]

It seems very plain to me that this agency was shuttling people through soo fast, including the teachers they were certifying.

1 - I was NEVER weight checked until I insisted on it after I nearly drowned.
2 - Just after I had the episode, the instructor *still* did not feel compelled to check my weight.
3 - There was a different 'teacher' at every one of the pool sessions.
4 - This was this teacher's first class ever taught.


I got through it ultimately but I do have to say that I think this scenario is putting a lot of people into some dangerous situations.

First off, while a lot of people like to bash agencies, your problem here was not the agency you got your certification through, but rather the instructor and/or the dive shop.

Secondly, if you had a different teacher at every pool session, does this mean that at just one of your pool sessions it was the teacher's first class?

Not against you, but let me hop on my soap box a minute for the sake of anyone who might be reading this who is just about to start taking scuba classes....Before signing up with an LDS or instructor to take a class you need to ask questions other than "How much is it going to cost?" and "How long is it going to take?" Find out if your instructor is brand spanking new, what is their teaching style, are they truely interested in helping you become a safe diver, or are they just going through the motions?

*Not posted in relation to the incident that is the topic of this thread, but only in reference to the post quoted.

 

[Walter]

BY POINTING TO THE LOUSY STANDARDS OF THE AGENCIES.

OK, so every single agency has perfect standards. The fact that they all differ greatly from each other does not make any less perfect from another.

Sorry, but if an instructor can follow standards to the letter and do a lousy job of teaching, then the standards are flawed. I've never seen beating your mother required or even mentioned in the standards of any agency.

Now, if standards are not the issue here (and they clearly aren't), then DROP THEM from your arguments.

The issue where? The issue in the question Mike was asked? They are the issue there. The issue about what caused this death? We don't know if standards are an issue or not. We do not know what training she had. We do not know if in her training standards were followed or if short cuts were taken. We do not know under what standards she was trained. I haven't seen an argument about that, so there's nothing to drop.

I am biased against a myriad of ways that are used to IMPLY that the agencies are severely flawed by talking about how "flawed training" and/or "overweighting students" caused this accident. I find the accusations spurious, misguided and mean spirited.

No Pete, you are biased in favor of seeing implications and accusations that do not exist.

Do I have to agree with you to show that I am OPEN to discussion? In what ways have I sought to LIMIT discussion here? Have I edited any comments or made any threats? I have to admit that I resent THIS implication but I will not ask you to take it back.

Of course not. You can disagree with me any time and still be open to discussion. You have not edited any comments nor have you made any threats. OTOH, you have made use of character assassination instead of actual discussion. That limits discussion. A few examples (all quotes from you in this thread) of you trying to limit discussion:

You can bash the agencies and all of the instructors and talk about the "Good ol' Days" where they also taught underwater demolition and hand to hand combat all you want.

I just don't buy into this elitest instructor crap.

I avoid adrenaline junkies like the plague.

Back to bashing the agencies.

it's the ego insinuating that your training must somehow be superior.

But it appears that some would paint instructors (and their agencies) as being as crooked as a mechanic, as stupid as a plumber and as lazy as a lawyer.

The most amazing quote is in spite of all the others, you say:

You mention that I am biased... against what? Non sequiturs? Gross over generalizations? Fallacious assumptions?

I fully support a quality dive training program that meets the needs and the desires of the student.

Glad to hear it. I'd hate to think I'd misunderstood you all these years we've been friends.

There is not enough evidence to conclude that training was either a primary or contributing factor in this incident.

I'm in full agreement.