"Is a BP/W too confusing for new divers?" and related topics...

[jadairiii]

Interesting post.

However, BP/W would not work for many of my OW students because they would be overweighted even with an aluminum backplate. Many of them need zero weight.

Sorry, but I must waive the bs flag on this quote. What are you teaching them with LP steel tanks? 118’s? Put them in Alum 80’s, problem solved.

And if your students cant complete a check out dive in an Alum 80, with gas to spare, well then, they have other issues unrelated to diving.

 

[beanojones]

I'm confused.

How is a BP/W any more difficult that a jacket?

For people who take their gear off all the time, BP/W are much harder to deal with than Jackets (hence the name Jacket because it is as easy to ... If the gear does not ned to come on and off a bunch, there is not much difference in use, but for people who need pockets (for whatever reason) BP/W can be a pain.

I have used Jackets with metal backplates in them, and they use the best aspects of each style to make something interesting. But that's Frankensteining the gear a bit.

In a lot of the Pacific, compact 80s are used to take weight off the belt and put it on the back, which is a good thing.

 

[eelnoraa]

For people who take their gear off all the time, BP/W are much harder to deal with than Jackets (hence the name Jacket because it is as easy to ... If the gear does not ned to come on and off a bunch, there is not much difference in use, but for people who need pockets (for whatever reason) BP/W can be a pain.

Respectfully, I disagree with the first part. BP/W are harder to deal with than jacket IF and only if the harness is NOT adjusted properly. The way to don/off bp/w may be different than jacket, but not any harder even in drysuit and 400g undergarment. In fact, once the rig if on your back, it may even be easier due to lack of cluster. Also, consider OP's students are using Infiniti, no reason why don/off is any different than jacket.

As for pocket, putting pocket on waist harness is an option. I tent to think most people don't do it because they don't need it, not because they can't do it.

 

[rhwestfall]

You guys are crazy for critizing students out of OW looking like this. If they deserve -1 for this and -1 for that, the 99% of the OW or even AOW out there is like -100,000. Good job to the instructors.

somehow the smiley must have been missed when you read my post.... ah, humor wasted... I'll try harder next time.....

P.S. - they are impressive - think I said that in the second line of my post (post #2)...

 

[boulderjohn]

So the question is not why does Wayne train OW divers in a BP/W, but rather, why doesn't everyone else?

I think there are regional issues. In my entire state, the BP/W has very little history, and there are only a few shops where you can even buy them. Dive shop owners are very reluctant to get into anything that won't sell. They are also very much bound by tradition. I say that with some regret, because I work for a shop that is just now moving away from that older tradition. I love the shop for the most part, but I must still teach OW students in their jacket style BCDs. I end up putting weight on their upper cam bands using a bungee technique I learned from Netdoc, but it is very hard to achieve the kind of trim a BP/W provides so easily.

Now my question is... in those classes that teach good buoyancy, trim and propulsion techniques, how much time is spent on those skills? Especially in relation to time spent on other basic skills?

As someone who really focuses on neutral buoyancy in instruction, I will point out that you are thinking of them as two separate things. If you start out teaching students while they are buoyant, and if you never put them on their knees anchored to the floor, then you are working on buoyancy the entire the time you are working on the other skills. It takes no more time to teach the class that way than it does to teach the class with no focus on buoyancy. In fact, I find it takes less time because it is so much harder for students to do the basic skills on their knees.

 

[shoredivr]

They make pockets for B/P Ws, I was just using one with a wetsuit in the St Lawrence River this weekend. And I don't find getting in and out of the harness to be a problem, wetsuit or drysuit.

 

[beaverdivers]

Yeah, sure, maybe in the pool. In the real world where people have on a wetsuit of at least 3mm, having zero weight when their tank is down to 500 isn't a good recipe for success. Please explain your post a bit more...where are you teaching with no weight if not in the pool.

Actually, we supply 3mm suits for our pool sessions since the water is around 84 degrees and the sessions are 3 hours - time in the water about 2.5 hours. Almost all of our students do need weight for the pool sessions.

However, our Open Water dives take place in a natural fresh water hot spring, water temp. 90 degrees. No wet suit needed. We use AL50, AL63 & AL80. Many students don't need any weight. Colorado is a very fit state, especially where we live.

 

[doctormike]

They make pockets for B/P Ws, I was just using one with a wetsuit in the St Lawrence River this weekend. And I don't find getting in and out of the harness to be a problem, wetsuit or drysuit.

Yeah, but pockets on your dry suit or neoprene shorts with pockets are a better solution. Don't like pockets on the harness itself, they are smaller and harder to access.

 

[Banyan]

Actually, we supply 3mm suits for our pool sessions since the water is around 84 degrees and the sessions are 3 hours - time in the water about 2.5 hours. Almost all of our students do need weight for the pool sessions.

However, our Open Water dives take place in a natural fresh water hot spring, water temp. 90 degrees. No wet suit needed. We use AL50, AL63 & AL80. Many students don't need any weight. Colorado is a very fit state, especially where we live.

I dove a Kydex plate, AL80 and no weight in board shorts back when I was running 25 miles a week and was so thin somebody said I looked "like a famine victim", and never touched my inflator during dives since all my buoyancy control was in my lungs. I had switched from a thick padded jacket (no lead) to the backplate and just adjusted my breathing accordingly for the extra couple pounds of negative buoyancy. A Catalina compact 80 is -5.9 full and -.02 empty. A Catalina compact 63 is -2.6 full and +2 empty. My Kydex plate is less than 1 pound negative while an aluminum BP is about 2 pounds negative, so the difference is about 1 pound.

I'm simply having trouble visualizing a body type in AL63 and aluminum BP that wouldn't go up if they took a deep breath... Maybe a 230 pound linebacker with 1% body fat?

 

[eelnoraa]

However, our Open Water dives take place in a natural fresh water hot spring, water temp. 90 degrees. ...

Wow, looks like I need to visit Colorado.