Is advanced open water worth it?

[Dive-aholic]

If it were possible just to pay the check-out dive & certification that would be more acceptable...

This is possible. Instead of signing up for a class with your LDS, sign up for the cert while you're on a dive vacation. Some places will charge you a flat fee per dive and includes a quick brief and debrief along with the dive. But this is an option that should only be used by those that don't have the basic knowledge. I did land nav in the Army as well and this is how I did my nav cert. I didn't see the need to sit in a classroom learning how to use a compass. But the info I got in the briefs and debriefs was useful.

Now I seriously disagree. Standard course curriculum should be designed for candidates who have no previous experience.

I think that's the problem. If a diver chooses to wait 50 or 100 dives before doing this, then the standard curriculum is too basic, which I think was the point of this thread to begin with.

 

[FatCat]

Sorry, I don't consider that any of this is part of a Navigation class. These are basic skills that you are describing.
These together with the bit about the dive light are part & parcel of the Night/LowVis course, which I believe should be obligatory as I can see no way of acquiring this experience previously.

Of course these are basic skills and with every new set of skills a diver acquires, these skills need to be adapted. Using an UW compass automatically involves relearning basic skills. So yes, in a navigation course the combination of all this is added task loading for the student. It's impossible to separate the mechanics of buoyancy and trim, buddy contact and the rest of the package from the mechanics of UW navigation. If you were to try and do so, the course would be useless. Which brings me to my previously made point, ie. no matter how well you can navigate on land or wherever, you have to relearn under water.

Since navigation is also part of a Night/Low visibility specialty (at least with SSI it is), logically navigation should come first. Always train in easy conditions first, then move on to more complicated tasks. Since it's impossible to dive without a light where I live, using the light while navigating is part and parcel of the course.

I think that's the problem. If a diver chooses to wait 50 or 100 dives before doing this, then the standard curriculum is too basic, which I think was the point of this thread to begin with.

Threads evolve, so has this one.

I've done advanced courses with experienced divers. No-one complained. I just adapted the course a bit and tried to find new things for them to do. So as far as I can see, there is no problem, except that the "advanced" curriculum should be upgraded to a more coherent course IMO.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Threads evolve, so has this one.

You're right.

I've done advanced courses with experienced divers. No-one complained. I just adapted the course a bit and tried to find new things for them to do. So as far as I can see, there is no problem, except that the "advanced" curriculum should be upgraded to a more coherent course IMO.

Unfortunately, not all instructors do that. Some stick to the bare minimum standards, which is what I think the original post was leary of.

 

[limeyx]

Well, as you've observed, it depends entirely on the instructor ... and to a lesser degree the agency. Most agencies tell you what the minimum requirements are, and let the instructor determine what additional curriculum to teach. If the instructor teaches strictly to the minimum requirements, you probably won't learn much ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Well, I (kinda) agree, but if GUE had an Open Water class already, we wouldn't be having this discussion as I'd have just taken that and skipped all the PADI stuff entirely. But yes, in general you can get a really crappy or really good instructor and that can make a huge difference, but realistically if you get a PADI instructor with 8 or so people in the class then no matter how good they are, you aren't going to get much of their time.

 

[FatCat]

Well, I (kinda) agree, but if GUE had an Open Water class already, we wouldn't be having this discussion as I'd have just taken that and skipped all the PADI stuff entirely. But yes, in general you can get a really crappy or really good instructor and that can make a huge difference, but realistically if you get a PADI instructor with 8 or so people in the class then no matter how good they are, you aren't going to get much of their time.

Never had 8 people in one class. Never will either, local conditions don't allow for that.

 

[DORSETBOY]

Never had 8 people in one class. Never will either, local conditions don't allow for that.

same here in Scotland, not poss and not allowed in open water on a 1 instructor to 8 student ratio here, that would be against HSE reg's. We do team teach but if there's 8 students in the water then we'll be in two groups of max 4 students per instructor and a dm with each instructor plus shore cover.