Is DM-ing incompatible with DIR?

[Mako Mark]

Look.......... the DIR divers need to pass on the baton.
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Yup

I for one would love to see GUE become a mainstream, entrylevel agency...........
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me too.

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[WVMike]

This is interesting.....why not?

R..

It actually started in my DM class when I was exposed to the Instructors handbook and the standards. The more I learned the standards the more I realized they were not all being followed. Which led to Ethical types of questions.

After DIR/F and seeing how lacking the Standards were to begin with, and at that they were not being followed, I just could not be part of it. Now I am talking of a specific instructor and not Agency bashing here.

My DIR instructor hammered in the point, that once you are a DM or an instructor you will always be one, and you will always be liable if you are around diving, wether you are involved in that diving in a professional role or not. Makes me want to be a safe diver and be around safe well trained divers.

 

[Kim]

My DIR instructor hammered in the point, that once you are a DM or an instructor you will always be one, and you will always be liable if you are around diving, wether you are involved in that diving in a professional role or not.

That's a very interesting point. I wonder if a DM/Instructor would assume more legal liability if they've done DIR/F?
I can almost hear the prosecution: "Well sir - we know that you should have known better because you've done GUE's DIR/F course and passed!"

 

[Paul Evans]

My DIR instructor hammered in the point, that once you are a DM or an instructor you will always be one, and you will always be liable if you are around diving, wether you are involved in that diving in a professional role or not. Makes me want to be a safe diver and be around safe well trained divers.

This is unbeleivable.

 

[cornfed]

There is no magic bullet, there is not "instant diver, just add water" packet, it takes time, knowlege and experience. We learn from our mistakes plain and simple. Hopefully our mistakes dont hurt us, and that is why beginners pay a divemaster: To protect them from the mistakes they are going to make that could hurt them.

Mark, I agree with you. My concern is where you draw the line between helping someone have fun and increasing the potential for then to get hurt. There is a gray area between these. When I talk about people making dives they could more or less do themselves I'm talking about that gray area. In my opinion, the DM should be able to help someone mitigate a problem which an inexperienced diver might blow out of proportion. You seem to be stuck on the idea of being a dependant diver in need of a DM or a completely independent diver for whom a DM would be useless. A DM should not be expected to save you from making a mistake on a dive you shouldn't be making. I do not think (as others have suggested) that it is intrinsically obvious that DIR and being a DM are mutually exclusive pursuits. However, I do believe that by restricting yourself to the stereotypical view of DMs (herding cattle and expecting a DM to save someone) they would be incompatible pursuits.

Yes, and a large part of the diving population should stick to churning around a shallow broken patch of coral reef a couple of times a year, which I think is paret of your point, but not everyone will, can or want to become experts.

If that is all they should be doing I feel very strongly that a DM should not assist them in making more challenging dives.

I for example suck at carpentry, have no desire to get better, and if the job is much more challenging than banging nails in the wall to hang picture frames from, I will call someone that is better at it than me.

The difference is you don't expect to assist the carpenter. I'm going to build a screened-in porch in the spring. I'm pretty confident that I could do it myself but I've been talking to a friend who puts food on his table by swinging a hammer. His advice and suggestions will save me from making mistakes. If I didn't talk to him I would still be able to finish the porch without the roof collapsing on me, but by talking with him I'll be able to do so with fewer frustrating mistakes. You seem to be suggesting that a "Carpentry DM" should be able take someone that can only hang a picture and help them build the porch. Does this make sense or am I further obfuscating my point?

Cornfed, I was trying to get a rise out of you when I called DIR divers ameteurs and PADI Divemasters professionals

In all honesty, I don't see why you would expect me to take issue with that statement.

 

[minnediver]

This is unbeleivable.

What is unbeivable about the fact that after becoming an instructor and teaching people, you are on the hook from then on? That is the way things work - even if you quit teaching and go into non-teaching status you are still liable for a long period of time (I think 7 years). That is why they carry non-teaching status insurance.

 

[Mako Mark]

In all honesty, I don't see why you would expect me to take issue with that statement.

because you were getting on your high horse about how bad divemasters who work in the tropics are, an attitude which I considered dogmatic.

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[cornfed]

because you were getting on your high horse about how bad divemasters who work in the tropics are, an attitude which I considered dogmatic.

I'm sorry, but no where did I say that all divemasters in the tropics are bad. What I did was take the sterotypical view of dive masters and attempt to show how an alternative view of their role could be compatible with DIR. I do not feel that I was being arrogant or dogmatic because you more or less agreed with me that some DMs do function in such a manner as to support the sterotype. And I certainly don't feel that any of the views I expressed had a deleterious effect on the thread except where people jumped to conclusions instead of asking me to clarify something they did not understand. I do, however, acknowledge that my choice of words may have contributed to this.

 

[Paul Evans]

What is unbeivable about the fact that after becoming an instructor and teaching people, you are on the hook from then on? That is the way things work - even if you quit teaching and go into non-teaching status you are still liable for a long period of time (I think 7 years). That is why they carry non-teaching status insurance.

"Whether in a professonal role or not"

I doubt very much that this is the case, How can a instructor be liable for someone else when their on holiday. This is ludicrous in the extreme. I realise you are responsable for students and have to have liabilty insurence. But the quote by WVMike clearly says OR NOT, It makes it sound like all profesionals are responsable for everybody at ALL times. I don't think tht is true!

 

[Mako Mark]

"Whether in a professonal role or not"

It makes it sound like all profesionals are responsable for everybody at ALL times. I don't think tht is true!

I think what is being referred to here is whether getting paid for it or not.

The situation where a Divemaster dives with his open water buddies on the weekend still holds the divemaster to a certain duty of care.

The open water divers look up to and respect the divemasters qualification experience and judgement. He/she is therefore a role model.
As a role model the lesser exerienced or qualified divers are learning from his/her example.

Therefore by default the Divemaster is teaching! Whether in a professional role or not.

That is why the divemaster should follow safe diving practices at all times, unless of course he is diving with a group of his peers.