Is "learning the hard lesson" necessary?

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That makes a lot of sense. But I'm not sure about training to override those behaviors if you don't even know what will trigger them. I'm sure there are common ones, but I everyone is different, and I doubt any are universal...

IMHO, there are two factors which, when combined, inevitably trigger panic:

1) Belief that you might die. (Threat) Regardless of the reality, if the individual perceives a risk of imminent death they will suffer an extreme degree of stress. That stress may be manageable, depending on their psychological tolerances, but is often dependent upon...

2) A sense of helplessness. (Resolution) Again, regardless of the reality, if the individual perceives no immediate resolution to their dilema they have no barrier against the instinct to resort to an irrational fight or flight response.

Factor 1 is dictated by psychological strength. Some people don't accept they will die, even in the worst circumstances. Others succumb to any hazard they encounter. Whilst generally 'pre-set' for the individual, there may be merit in the supposition that an increased tolerance can be 'trained' into an individual. A sort of 'nature versus nurture' debate applies. There is also merit in consideration that psychological robustness may be 'transferable' from other (non-diving) life experiences - but again, that would vary depending on individual psychological make-up. For a scuba diver, this factor relevant to personal experience: a flooded mask may scare a novice diver through the fear of drowning. With experience, they learn that the experience isn't potentially fatal. What matters is the belief.

Believing that you could, or can, die in a given situation is certain to cause a high stress response. That stress response may, or may not, be sufficient to cause panic, depending on the individual.

Factor 2 is heavily influenced by training and past experience. The more issues that a diver encounters ("survives"), whether in real life experiences or through sufficiently realistic training, the more likelihood that they will have a resolution/s at their disposal to a problem. Regardless of the psychological robustness of the individual, a culmination of believing death is possible, coupled with no resolution to the cause of that possibility, is highly likely to cause a stress overload. If a resolution is known to the individual, then panic may be averted.

As a novice diver, one can prepare against panic by addressing both of these issues.

Firstly, the understanding that a 'belief' or perception that death is possible/likely may be flawed...that inexperience may prevent you seeing the true nature of the problem. Stress-inducing training may help the individual deal with these situations. As they say in the military, 'train hard, fight easy'.

This is also, I believe, where advice like 'stop-think-act' comes into play. The process of stopping and thinking helps overcome an initial perception of danger and allows a resolution to be sought. It reminds the diver that they have time. A diver always has time, even if brief. This is why a "calm response to air deprivation" is a factor addressed within Divemaster training (is a performance factor in the 'scuba equipment exchange' assessment).

Secondly, the understanding that resolutions exist to most foreseeable scuba problems. Having 'stopped and thought', the diver has to find a resolution, before they can act. If no positive action can be determined, then panic remains likely. Training and practice is a means to access and retain these resolutions. The more you know...the more you ingrain and can remember... the more capable you become... the less chance that you will find yourself at a psychological 'dead end' in an incident.
 
incidents do not build character, they reveal it....

Tyger this is it in a nut shell.
All diver of all levels have a breaking point.
The difference is training, experience, reaction.
One can experience incidents small or very complicated yet work through the incident "Stop, Think, then Act accordingly".
We all are on a different path as divers and hopefully diving within our training and experience level.

Issues will arise while we are diving like this and we grow from them, "Train to manage them" so that we can keep on diving safety.
TSandM aka. Lynne has a great post about panic in Experienced Divers.
Very good read and useful to understand you can train for the worst but sometimes survival is dependent on little more than luck.
You can train to manage the risk but not eliminate it!

I have watched several divers come apart underwater and several more rise to the challenge.
New or experienced divers have breaking points just a simple fact.
That is what encouraged me to seek more training and to continue to do so!
THE MORE TRAINING YOU DO.....THE LESS YOU DISCOVER THAT YOU KNOW!
That means the more you train the more you realize you do not know.
The reality of diving is, What you do not know can kill you!

That sobering brief in our OW class encouraged us all to dive within our training and experience.
Safe dives to all and keep these things in mind, HUMILITY is a virtue and can keep you alive!

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!
 
I have to stop you right there. In a phrase... "**** happens!" Things WILL go wrong despite your best efforts. Things that are beyond your control or any ability to influence will happen even if you are faithfully following every thing you were ever taught in every dive training course you have ever taken. To think other wise is the very definition of complacency and just plain fool hardy.

Maybe you have a better imagination than me, but I'm having a very difficult time coming up with any non-medical problems that can't be handled by following training and using good judgement.

Care to list a few?

flots.
 
Tyger, as far as your actual question, I think others here have addressed it well.

As far as your own experiences, it seems to me that anyone on an OW training dive who can calmly recover from having a reg yanked out of her mouth or who thinks to make a noise to attract one's instructor when separated in low visibility has nothing to be especially concerned about.

I have found that I am not wired to handly the unexpected calmly, and things like that WILL rattle me.
 
Maybe you have a better imagination than me, but I'm having a very difficult time coming up with any non-medical problems that can't be handled by following training and using good judgement.

Care to list a few?

flots.

It's going to be one short list.


It isn't that problems can't be handled by following training and using good judgement, the issue becomes the time limit, or percieved limit.


Granted, it is hard to get into much trouble by paying attention and avoiding situations that add to any problem's severity, in my old age I tend to dive more along those lines than I once did. When I do try to re-live my youth and opt for something "stupid", I take plenty of air for the evolution, drag along one of my reliable buddies, and run it more like an expedition rather than a rec dive.




Bob
---------------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.
 
My answer to Tyger's question is 'NO." Many divers are either lucky, or more likely, prepared so that they never have "an incident." I also want o comment that I work with divers of all experience and certification levels, and contrary to what seems to be the prejudice of many posters against so-called "newbies," I find divers who have recently completed training are good divers. They almost all remember their training and apply it, even in problem solving. They will be better divers as they STAY ACTIVE and accumulate more bottom time, of course. The divers I find are most dangerous to dive with are divers who have not been in the water for quite a while, or who overestimate their competence and skills. Give me a new diver over the diver who was certified 10 years ago, but hasn't been in the water for two years or more. Great conversation on this thread. Thanks Tyger. Now stay active and stay safe. The best way to deal with "an incident" is never to have one.
DivemasterDennis
 
Maybe you have a better imagination than me, but I'm having a very difficult time coming up with any non-medical problems that can't be handled by following training and using good judgement.

Care to list a few?

flots.
If this is what you really intended to say... Considering that this is not at all what you said or implied in your original statement, then yes, you are absolutely correct.


Your original statement:
"What to do while panicking" is the wrong take-away from the incidents.

The real lesson that should be learned is that everything taught in a good OW class is really important, and if you actually learned, remembered and practiced what you learned every time, the event would not have occurred.
implies that nothing can go wrong during a dive if you are "practicing what you learned" which is nothing short of ridiculous. Don't get pissy with me just because you can't express a clear thought.
 
If this is what you really intended to say... Considering that this is not at all what you said or implied in your original statement, then yes, you are absolutely correct.


Your original statement:

implies that nothing can go wrong during a dive if you are "practicing what you learned" which is nothing short of ridiculous. Don't get pissy with me just because you can't express a clear thought.

They actually say the same thing. You just disagree.

In any case, please share a few examples. I'm always open to learn new stuff.

flots.
 
You might be beset by a pack of ravening dolphin-rapists. Or is that rapist-dolphins? Bad news either way. No amount of training or "good judgment" is going to get you out of that one unscathed.
 
They actually say the same thing. You just disagree....
:confused: They are two very different statements with two very different meaning which I have already explained. the latter statement being the case, I do not disagree. Which I also clearly stated. You just want to argue.

In any case, please share a few examples. I'm always open to learn new stuff.

flots.
Examples of what? :confused: How a dive can go wrong despite your training, experience, and or best efforts? Try human error for starters. Which TSandM has already given a perfect example of in this very thread. Seriously dude... if you need examples of this perhaps you should retire from diving altogether.
 

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