Is there a place for competitive spirit in scuba diving?

[Scott McWilliam]

do competing ego's count?

and yes there is, I have on ongoing competition to see who can be the oldest living SCUBA diver do more diving and have more fun than any one else. There is no formal registration your welcome to join in.

 

[dreamdive]

The biggest competition I have is usually with myself.

I suppose a little competion among divers is to be expected and natural... and maybe at times even to be encouraged if it can be a catalyst for self improvement, but never ever at the expense of safety - for yourself and your fellow divers, and not as a replacement or distraction from actually enjoying diving and the wonders of that environment.

I am with you. I am my worst critic
Just like playing Golf, there are good days and not so good days (actually Golf is worse).

 

[kr2y5]

Many of us are our own harshest critics, so the idea of turning the energy inwards and transforming it into a desire for perfection resonates with us. Then again, if there were no Olympics, there would be fewer athletes, so perhaps this does not work for everyone. IMHO, there's nothing wrong in feeling joy while competing with others, it's just a part of human nature. Some attribute this to ego, but let's be real... don't we all have huge egos around here? We might as well dispense with the hypocrisy, admit it, and get over it. Some amount of ego is a good thing, and it's a necessary ingredient in almost any achievement.

It has been my impression so far that the idea of competitiveness is at odds with scuba diving, especially technical diving, and this thread so far seems to reinforce my belief. Then again... there seem to be a number of pursuits that appear to roughly satisfy the definition of "competitive", at least at the intuitive level, while they are generally accepted by the community. Things like, exploring the deepest cave, laying the most line, and what not. So, it would seem that maybe things aren't so black and white, after all.

The reason I started this thread was, because I was wondering where is that fuzzy boundary between ambitious, competitive, bold, ego-driven pursuits that we applaud, that win our collective nod of approval, vs. those that are considered shameful. What makes it one vs. the other? Principles? Tradition? Social dynamics? Or, is it just me looking at it this way? Thanks!

 

[JohnnyC]

No. Unless it's those cool pool-based scooter acrobatic competitions. Those look fun.

Think about how many professional athletes have their careers ended by injury. Hell, Junior Seau killed himself because of the affects of multiple TBI's over the years. The fact though is that when something happens to them, they are often well cared for by teams of doctors, specialists, etc. When there's an issue scuba diving, especially to the extremes that are records, the outcome is usually fatal. The margin for error is razor thin. Why should we promote that sort of behavior?

 

[Trace Malinowski]

The reason I started this thread was, because I was wondering where is that fuzzy boundary between ambitious, competitive, bold, ego-driven pursuits that we applaud, that win our collective nod of approval, vs. those that are considered shameful. What makes it one vs. the other? Principles? Tradition? Social dynamics? Or, is it just me looking at it this way? Thanks!

Competition is the driving force for almost everything in diving from making a better product, to teaching a better class, to having better trim, to traveling more exotic places, diving the most configurations, earning respect from your peers, or doing more for the environment. Many times competition creates positive outcomes. Sometimes the outcome is negative. But, I found it interesting that you used the terms "ego-driven" and "collective nod" in your post.

The following is something I posted on my Facebook page which addresses individualism vs. collectivism. It is not my intent to post this here to stir the pot about deep diving records. The intent of the post was to advocate respect for an individual's right to place himself ahead of the collective. I'm posting it simply as food for thought about individualism vs. collectivism.

Here is my opinion on trying to break deep diving records. I thought it apropos that TCM aired "The Fountainhead" just prior to Dr. Guy Garman's fatal attempt at a 1200 fsw open-circuit scuba dive. Both the novel and the film explore the relationship between the individual and society - placing individualism and socialism in a pugilistic ring roped off by the world of architecture. Gary Cooper's character, Howard Roark, is an architect who represents the triumph of individualism over the collective. His antagonist is a socialist who believes in ethical altruism in which the moral value of an individual's actions depend solely on the impact it has on other people. Back in 6th grade every guy had a stupid comb sticking out of his back pocket. That was all the societal pressure I could stomach in one lifetime. That led to a path in which I truly believe that the needs of the individual are paramount to those of society - as long as the individual does not cause damage to property of the public trust such as destroying a wreck, reef or cave, etc. As you can see looking around our world, individualism is losing out to society. Everything is for a cause. People are expected to live for the collective, behave for the collective, hold the values of the collective. In my world of scuba diving, for the past 34 years I've been in the sport, an entire culture has been striving to remove the individual and promote group dynamics. In fact, training agencies have risen which promote collectivism over individualism in the name of safety. Since when did safety become more important than freedom? History teaches that the world's worst dictators have always appealed to making people safer. Now, people are saying that deep diving records need to be removed from the record books to not encourage individuals from pursuing such goals. Our "something needs to be done" mentality has become empowered to the point that even if an individual places no one else in danger someone with a dissenting opinion is ready to protect the individual, his family, and friends from loss - no one should have the right to decide such things. The dive collective's first outcry is that it will make the sport seem dangerous. So what? Danger doesn't always scare people. In fact many people seek certain levels of risk for individual self-actualization. Again this is where society should learn that the right of the individual is so valuable that society doesn't need to interfere. This guy who raised a family, helped patients as a physician, employed people while running a medical office is being vilified as if he was a school shooter. Why? Because he chose to do something that placed an individual at greater risk with no benefit to the collective. We have been brainwashed. Cut him slack. Some say he did not have enough experience. Well, Sheck Exley did have experience and died just the same. Deep diving is extremely risky. Those who have survived such attempts are often not without their permanent battle scars. But, even if 1 guy per year died trying to dive to 1000+ feet in a person's lifetime that is like maybe 100 dead divers. We lose over 150 per year in relatively benign diving accidents. A woman can't reach her tank valve. A man panics because he loses a mask. Things like that. How many world record attempts like this have there been? 100 people die every year from icicles in Russia. 450 people die every year in the USA falling out of bed. 600 people a year die of autoerotic asphyxiation. Gangs kill 100 people in 100 days. 100 Americans overdose daily. 40,000 people die in car crashes annually. In the Caymans I was chasing the men's constant ballast freediving world record when I was hit by a car while standing on the road talking to the driver of another vehicle after midnight. If I got killed solo freediving I'd be vilified, but if I died in a car accident it would be a tragedy - even if I was standing in the middle of the road. Honestly, deep diving attempts and fatalities whether in scuba diving or freediving only risk the lives of the individual and any support divers are there out of personal choice. Recovery divers? Most recovery teams are lucky they don't drown in shallow water. They'd be entirely incapable of a world depth record recovery. So, deep diving ... like anything that far outside the realm of any normal activity ... is something that certain personalities are drawn to do. Most of us don't understand. Most of us don't need to understand. Or care.

 

[JohnnyC]

The problem with your theory is that his individual right to off himself in the most spectacularly misguided of ways may directly effect the individual rights of the rest of the "collective." The fact that he turned this into such a high profile stunt places us all at risk for more regulation and government intervention, not just those who would want to chase records.

Here's a good example, single tank unqualified diver dies in a cave, cave is closed to diving for everyone, including those actually qualified to make use of the cave system. The actions of an individual have negatively effected the rest of the collective. This is no different. This isn't about his individual right to do something stupid, consequences be damned, this is about his stupid act causing unwanted and unnecessary scrutiny for the rest of us. Promoting a competitive atmosphere where this type of risky behavior is required doesn't help anyone.

There is no scuba police.......yet.

 

[Nuribromanski]

The problem with your theory is that his individual right to off himself in the most spectacularly misguided of ways may directly effect the individual rights of the rest of the "collective." There is no scuba police.......yet.

I do not think "directly effect" means what you think it means. If the SCUBA police arise in a democracy, it's our fault for allowing them to exist, not the dead divers who are exploited by the SCUBA police to obtain power over others.

 

[JohnnyC]

I do not think "directly effect" means what you think it means. If the SCUBA police arise in a democracy, it's our fault for allowing them to exist, not the dead divers who are exploited by the SCUBA police to obtain power over others.

That presupposes we have the ability to counteract that outcome. The cave example is a perfect example of direct effect and has several real life examples to back it up. We are fortunate that thus far it has been land owners and not any actual governmental regulation.

Your ideological zeal is laudable, but the real world doesn't work like that. We need it make it safer ourselves, before someone makes it safer for us.

 

[Aotus]

To answer the headline question, in my opinion Yes - and I think it's critical to improving as a diver, whether tech or rec diving. I'm always trying to outdo my most seamless dive of the trip, each dive i am better at maintaining perfect trim in odd spaces, each dive I have better breathing, each dive I am more focused and tuned in to the cave. If I am not "winning" with each progressive dive in a trip, then something is not working for me and I have to either reset somehow to shorten the day/trip. I see no reason why one couldn't be "competing" with a dive buddy in this same way, but as was already said, we are our own toughest critics, and so too our own toughest competition.

 

[Wookie]

Maybe in number of dives. And that should be worth exactly what you pay for it, or even maybe bragging rights in the piss cloud of a swim up bar, but that's it. The competition should be between you and your demons, be they the buoyancy demons, the trim demons, the how to set your computer demons, etc. A diver should always try to improve.