Is there a valid reason for a pony bottle

[KenGordon]

The DIR crowd collectively sees ponies as a crutch. Their plan is that they can pick up with any of their brethren and have a good dive with minimal confusion. I applaud their buddy-centric approach, standardized gear, and standardized training. It comes as a package, you don't get to pick and choose in DIR. So it isn't for me.

I’m certainly not pat of the DIR crowd and yet I expect buddies to stay close enough to donate gas. That is a traditional aspect of being a buddy. Same ocean buddies require solo practices.

It seems to me then that the pro side is using two bogus arguments

1 - redundancy means a pony.
2 - your buddy will be useless.

The proper, low risk, answer to 1 is a twinset. A second, not so low risk one, is a big enough pony. For 2, well if they are solo diving see 1 plus a few other things.

Where I am from a pony is 3l. I have never seen anyone use a smaller one. The sarcasm at the surface would prove fatal. Personally I think that 3l probably ok to about 20m and just about ok for 30m, but that a twinset is certainly ok (assuming you can work it which is a whole other issue)

I think there is some self delusion going on here. When stuff goes wrong it isn’t exactly the clean example from training. Planning on a low SAC to hold up seems like a bad idea.

To any basic divers. Don’t ever think a 1l tank is for breathing from.

 

[markmud]

Have you factored in elevated gas consumption due to stress? What about time to put up a marker buoy if there’s boat traffic in the area?

Hi Ryan,

Thanks for the thoughtful question. Many of my compadres who use ponies have asked the same question.

1. The 6cf bottle is typically used in buddy diving situations.
2. Here is where I agree with you--total failures of your primary system, when inspected and serviced regularly, don't happen very often. Hardly ever. It does occasionally happen though. Packing a 40cf bottle all over the world for something that is completely anomalous is ridicules--to me!
3. Here is my regimen for practicing pony bottle ascents:
   1. I lose buoyancy (exhale all the gas in my lungs and BCD)
   2. spit out my reg
      
   3. I rip off my mask
   4. I then deploy the pony system
   5. I halt my descent by manually inflating my BCD
   6. I get my spare mask out and install it
   7. I then deploy my SMB
   8. I then proceed to the surface at 30' per minute.

If you are prone to panic, you need to get properly trained so that muscle memory and subconscious action take over.

Is a 6cf adequate for solo diving especially if you are below 60 feet? Hell no.

You probably did not assume that I use a 13 cf for solo diving. To iterate, the 6cf is used for buddy diving, mostly.

If a diver can't make a safe ascent on less than 13cf from less than 100 feet, he/she needs to be retrained!

Cheers,
markm

 

[markmud]

I’m certainly not pat of the DIR crowd and yet I expect buddies to stay close enough to donate gas. That is a traditional aspect of being a buddy. Same ocean buddies require solo practices.

It seems to me then that the pro side is using two bogus arguments

1 - redundancy means a pony.
2 - your buddy will be useless.

The proper, low risk, answer to 1 is a twinset. A second, not so low risk one, is a big enough pony. For 2, well if they are solo diving see 1 plus a few other things.

Where I am from a pony is 3l. I have never seen anyone use a smaller one. The sarcasm at the surface would prove fatal. Personally I think that 3l probably ok to about 20m and just about ok for 30m, but that a twinset is certainly ok (assuming you can work it which is a whole other issue)

I think there is some self delusion going on here. When stuff goes wrong it isn’t exactly the clean example from training. Planning on a low SAC to hold up seems like a bad idea.

To any basic divers. Don’t ever think a 1l tank is for breathing from.

Hi Ken,

BALDERDASH!

Please take your tech hat off and start thinking like a recreational diver in benign conditions.

Packing a twinset all over the world because an anomalous situation "might" occur is ridiculous. Using a twinset in benign conditions on a planned dive to 60 feet is a joke. A 13cf pony is all you need if you are solo diving in the normal recreational range (100 feet or less).

Does a pilot bring an extra plane in case the first one takes a dump? Does a skydiver bring a complete full-size chute if the first one fails? No, the redundant chute is a smaller version of the real thing.

I am your best buddy if we dive together. I will be your wingman just like a US Navy Blue Angel. However, some buddies are crap.

You are either over thinking this issue, as many techies do, or you are using a strawman to create your arguments.

thanks for communicating,
markm

 

[lowviz]

The proper, low risk, answer to 1 is a twinset. A second, not so low risk one, is a big enough pony.

A twinset, to most, is just a really big tank on the first dive. On the second dive, it is a regular tank. A twinset can be drained or lost through a free-flow just like a single tank. Therefore it is not a redundant supply, it is an isolatable supply that requires attention at the time of failure.

A pony is totally independent. A big pony is a PITA, but a 19cuft works for me.

 

[Ryan Mcshane]

Hi Ryan,

Thanks for the thoughtful question. Many of my compadres who use ponies have asked the same question.

1. The 6cf bottle is typically used in buddy diving situations.
2. Here is where I agree with you--total failures of your primary system, when inspected and serviced regularly, don't happen very often. Hardly ever. It does occasionally happen though. Packing a 40cf bottle all over the world for something that is completely anomalous is ridicules--to me!
3. Here is my regimen for practicing pony bottle ascents:
   1. I lose buoyancy (exhale all the gas in my lungs and BCD)
   2. spit out my reg
      
   3. I rip off my mask
   4. I then deploy the pony system
   5. I halt my descent by manually inflating my BCD
   6. I get my spare mask out and install it
   7. I then deploy my SMB
   8. I then proceed to the surface at 30' per minute.

If you are prone to panic, you need to get properly trained so that muscle memory and subconscious action take over.

Is a 6cf adequate for solo diving especially if you are below 60 feet? Hell no.

You probably did not assume that I use a 13 cf for solo diving. To iterate, the 6cf is used for buddy diving, mostly.

If a diver can't make a safe ascent on less than 13cf from less than 100 feet, he/she needs to be retrained!

Cheers,
markm

Yeah, good luck with that.

What happens if you have a failure mid water?

When SHTF, you don’t “rise to the occasion” you sink to the level of your training. Are you 100% sure you could perform all that under real pressure?

 

[Ryan Mcshane]

I would like to nominate this thread for the annual inane award.

The inmates are running the asylum

 

[Ryan Mcshane]

I think there is some self delusion going on here. When stuff goes wrong it isn’t exactly the clean example from training. Planning on a low SAC to hold up seems like a bad idea.

To any basic divers. Don’t ever think a 1l tank is for breathing from.

Word.

 

[markmud]

Yeah, good luck with that.

What happens if you have a failure mid water?

When SHTF, you don’t “rise to the occasion” you sink to the level of your training. Are you 100% sure you could perform all that under real pressure?

Hi Ryan,

You should try some pony bottle ascents the next time you dive. You will be surprised--they are just like every other ascent you make.

And in your case, you would rather do a CESA than have a pony available to get you 2/3 the way to the surface. After all, you must be prone to panic with the slightest issue that occurs in your life.

Solo diver training was all about pony bottle ascents. We did it on every dive. You start to realize that a pony bottle ascent is no different than any other ascent.

2.5 minutes to surface from 90 ft. with a 13 cf pony used. 77cf divided by 13 and multiplied by 2.5 equals 14.8 minutes. Do you breath through an AL 80 in 14.8 minutes? 13 cf in 2.5 minutes is an elevated breathing rate.

Think people, think before you go key board commando on us!

markm

 

[Ryan Mcshane]

Hi Ryan,

You should try some pony bottle ascents the next time you dive. You will be surprised--they are just like every other ascent you make.

And in your case, you would rather do a CESA than have a pony available to get you 2/3 the way to the surface. After all, you must be prone to panic with the slightest issue that occurs in your life.

Solo diver training was all about pony bottle ascents. We did it on every dive. You start to realize that a pony bottle ascent is no different than any other ascent.

2.5 minutes to surface from 90 ft. with a 13 cf pony used. 77cf divided by 13 and multiplied by 2.5 equals 14.8 minutes. Do you breath through an AL 80 in 14.8 minutes? 13 cf in 2.5 minutes is an elevated breathing rate.

Think people, think before you go key board commando on us!

markm

Cant answer my question can you?

 

[CWK]

Hi Ryan,

You should try some pony bottle ascents the next time you dive. You will be surprised--they are just like every other ascent you make.

And in your case, you would rather do a CESA than have a pony available to get you 2/3 the way to the surface. After all, you must be prone to panic with the slightest issue that occurs in your life.

Solo diver training was all about pony bottle ascents. We did it on every dive. You start to realize that a pony bottle ascent is no different than any other ascent.

2.5 minutes to surface from 90 ft. with a 13 cf pony used. 77cf divided by 13 and multiplied by 2.5 equals 14.8 minutes. Do you breath through an AL 80 in 14.8 minutes? 13 cf in 2.5 minutes is an elevated breathing rate.

Think people, think before you go key board commando on us!

markm

I use a slightly different method to calculate pony size. It works for me.

AL80= 80 cf.
13cf pony/80cf AL80 = 0.1625

In Bar 0.1625 x 200 bar = 32.5 bar. A 13cf pony contains the equivalent of 32.5 bar in an AL80. That is a lot of gas.