Jacket BC or Wing BC

[mictrik]

I really do not believe that the Scubapro Stabilizer jacket should placed in the same group as other jacket BC's. The Stabilizer jacket is a different animal, it is non-adjustable and very thin being essentially a sealed bladder, the older ones especially. The Stabilizer jacket allows for air to travel around the shoulder area, back and sides of the bladder. This ensures that the air bubble is always centered in the most stable position, hence the term Stabilizer jacket. Typically speaking, if you are not fat the Stabilizer jacket is extremely simple and the most streamlined with the exception of just a backpack and no BC. If you weight yourself as if you were not going to use a BC then you will be very slightly negative to neutral at the surface when fully deflated. As you descend you will increase your negativity (smiling will not likely help) and you may find the need for a very small amount of air in the BC. The BC will bring you to neutral without any noticeable increase in volume, that is, it will not bulge with air at all. If you achieve this, which is simple to do then you are properly weighted and will be more streamlined than any BP/Wings I have used or seen; one exception may be if you are using an enclosed bladder for streamlining. I have not seen anyone use such an enclosing device in 25 years.

Now for the majority of diving situations I choose a Stab jacket as stated above. Sometimes I just use a Backpack with no BC as I do not feel like washing out the BC. However the BC is an important safety device and i feel it is warranted in most situations.

The BP/Wings really come into it's own when you are using tools and being relatively stationary. I love the uncluttered front and the ability to place tools in good view and easy access. The BP/Wings will push the diver forward on the surface if it is not setup right or over inflated. The Stab Jacket is by far the most comfortable & stable BC on the surface and if god forbid a boat left while I was in the water I would be much happier in my Stab jacket.

So for me it really depends what I want to accomplish. I love the Stab jacket and the BP/wings. I am essentially a minimalist so more often throw the jacket on and jump in the water. No adjustments, no fiddling just jump in. Most of my dives are site seeing now days. Now if the object of the dive was to remove a porthole, then I would prefer the wings. The BP straps have plenty of room for hooks and clips etc... Plus, the BP/wing is often easier to config for two tanks if you are going to be working on something a while. Though you can screw duel tank clamps into the backpack of a stab jacket.

I don't use adjustable jackets and sold my last one many years ago, it was a Seaquest ADVI; what nice adjustable backpack it came with...

 

[DevonDiver]

I've done a web search...and Scubapro seems to name several of its jackets as 'stabilizing jackets'. Which one were you refering to?

The stabilizing jacket was invented by SCUBAPRO. It features the most harmonious buoyancy control of all. Stabilizing jackets utilize unrestricted internal passageways allowing air to flow continuously throughout the jacket accumulating at the highest point. The diver is surrounded by that bubble and moves easily and precisely. At the surface stabilizing jackets provide a very comfortable and relaxed floating and the full safety of the 'face up' position.

Basically...it's a normal jacket BCD... but it has better 'air-flow' within the bladders which are located in the same places as other jacket BCDs (rear and around torso).

Sounds like fancy words... but don't ALL BCDs and BP&Ws achieve "air to flow continuously throughout the jacket accumulating at the highest point"?

Claims like "harmonious buoyancy" and "surrounded by a bubble" are just gobbledegook.. that mean nothing when you think about it...

Claims like "comfortable and relaxed floating and the full safety of the 'face up' position" seem to imply that every BCD doesn't provide effective surface flotation...

 

[mictrik]

I've done a web search...and Scubapro seems to name several of its jackets as 'stabilizing jackets'. Which one were you refering to?



Basically...it's a normal jacket BCD... but it has better 'air-flow' within the bladders which are located in the same places as other jacket BCDs (rear and around torso).

Sounds like fancy words... but don't ALL BCDs and BP&Ws achieve "air to flow continuously throughout the jacket accumulating at the highest point"?

Claims like "harmonious buoyancy" and "surrounded by a bubble" are just gobbledegook.. that mean nothing when you think about it...

Claims like "comfortable and relaxed floating and the full safety of the 'face up' position" seem to imply that every BCD doesn't provide effective surface flotation...

Marketing is marketing is marketing..fine! What it seems to you does not matter! Bottom line is this. The Stabilizing Jacket is non-adjustable & allows the air bubble to move freely around the shoulder and all BCD do not allow this, in fact almost none do, aside from the Scubapro stabilizing jacket. This jacket is the most stable in any given position. If you are face up position and overweighted (as most are) a wing can be absolutely annoying. On the surface the Stabilizing jacket has no equal as most bcd's & wings will not be nearly as comfortable.

Those of you find that the jacket squeezes you are either overweight (FAT), overweighted (very likely as this seems to be the norm now) or both (most likely).

The Scubapro Stabilizer jacket was one of the first if not the first bcd available for divers. I think it was available back in the late 70's My first bcd was an early 80s model stab jacket, it is orange and IMO still the best BC I have. The other jackets, adjustable were competitive offerings that could not copy the original design due to patent issues. In the end the adjustable shoulder became more popular due to price & it's adjust-ability; not because it was more stable as it is not!

Anyone who started diving in the 70's and prior was taught and practiced proper weighting out. You had to get this right or you could have problems for there were no BC's (there were horse collars but that is another matter). Tanks were steel & did not go positive when low. If you were properly weighted and physically fit you were good to go and had a very unencumbered diving experience relative to the hyper-equipped diver of today. I see few people who focus on getting weighting absolutely correct as they instead rely on the BC to take up the slack. These are often the ones who complain about the jackets, especially the Stabilizer jacket "squeezing" them. Then they end up going to wings and many then complain about or get all befuddled on the surface because they are again overweighted. Then they add trim weights in the back and over here & there until they are "perfect". Enter "integrated weights" nice idea, was thought of by most of us back in the 80's when pockets on the BC first appeared. I often just grabbed a few rocks on a shore dive and stuck them in the pockets of the Stab jacket when I forgot my weight belt. But now with integrated weights the BC's become IMO a burden. I do not understand why people are adverse to the weight belt? It places the weight on the part of the body that can most easily bear extra weight, the waist/hips. The right hand release is universal so anyone will know how to release them quickly if need be. When i am diving with someone that uses these heavy weighted BC's I find that I end up having to help them on the boat, lift their BC's over the gunnel's or onto the swim platform, what a pain. When i am on a charter boat alone I dread being buddied with another diver who dons too much heavy equipment for the reef or artificial "wreck" that we are about swim around. If i am not the last person back on the boat, I know that I will be hefting someones "rig" with an additional 25-40lb of weight; not good on the back!

This is again all just opinion in the end, I have mine thats for sure and all of you have yours!

 

[DevonDiver]

Those of you find that the jacket squeezes you are either overweight (FAT), overweighted (very likely as this seems to be the norm now) or both (most likely).

Well... that's ONE way to say that your BCD is too small!!

Logically though... if you use a BCD that is variable volume around the torso.. then the fit is going to change during the dive.

How can it be a perfect fit when the fit itself changes?!?!

 

[fjpatrum]

Those of you find that the jacket squeezes you are either overweight (FAT), overweighted (very likely as this seems to be the norm now) or both (most likely).

This is again all just opinion in the end, I have mine thats for sure and all of you have yours!

Right, that opinion of yours is patently absurd. Anyone who doesn't fit a standard "off the rack" sizing scheme, whether fat, skinny, or something different is going to have comfort issues in a jacket.

I'll use my anecdotal example as evidence. I'm 6'1, 165-170 pounds, depending upon the day. I'm a male, and I have between 2 and 3 % body fat. I simply don't fit jacket BCs well. None of the dozen or so I've tried on and 4 that I've actually dived. I wear a "large" for my shoulders, a "medium" for my chest, and a "small" for my waist. When I was diving the jackets I had between 0 and 18 pounds of weight in them depending upon water temp and corresponding exposure protection. With 18 pounds I will admit to being about 4 pounds over-weighted but it was my first OW dive for class so it was understandable. I ended up dropping to 14 pounds by the 4th PADI OW dive and that was correct. Even so, 4 pounds of weight shouldn't (and didn't) make any difference in the "squeeze effect".

If you think I'm fat or overweighted, you are quite mistaken. I will 100% guarantee, though, that I was "squeezed" by every jacket I've worn, especially in cold water.

As Halemano is so fond of saying, putting your opinion forth as fact (your first quoted sentence above) just makes you look like an ass, even if what you're saying is correct. (In this case I agree somewhat with your belief that proper weighting is in fact one of the big issues but that doesn't support the rest of your statements.)

 

[mictrik]

When I refer to a jacket I am ONLY referring to the stabilizer jacket. For much of my life I had the same issue with clothing fit. Shoulder wide waist narrow, always have to have mid section taken in, this is still the case but to a lesser degree today. If you are "suffering" from a "squeeze" effect (unless perhaps on the surface) then you are very likely overweighted. You should not have much air in your BC during a dive! Now you say that you that with 18lbs of weight you experience a squeeze? With your physique you should almost never experience a squeeze. A Scubapro Stabilizer jacket in Large has around 60lbs of lift. Even if you were the full 18lbs over weighted you would only be using 30% of its capacity. That would mean that nearly 100% of the air in the bladder would be located at the back of the BC when horizontal. I think you may be referring to other "jacket" designs than the Stabilizer Jacket.?

Clearly you are not fat but I do think you were overweighted. I am 5'11" around 188-190lbs which for me is about 20lbs overweight. A few weeks back I did a shore dive with a A 6.5mm semi dry suit (Nova Scotia suit), 6mm boots, 3mm gloves, hood, XL Jet fins, an old Scubapro Double Black Stab Jacket and a little Genesis HP80 steel cylinder. My weight belt had 12lbs on it and I was fine. I may of tapped my inflater once or twice, the bladder was essentially flat against me, any air was at my back. Now, 10 years ago when I was 165-168 I may of been even less inclined to suffer a squeeze because i likely would of used 8-10 lbs of weight and I had less fat on me. I do not use integrated weight for any amount of weight over 8 lbs. My opinion is that weight is best handled at the waist where our center of gravity is. In addition the weight belt is a great out of the way but "in the ready" place to place lift bags, reels etc... Perhaps the design of your integrated weight system was at least in part responsible for your squeeze..?

I do not know who Helemano is or was, I do however take issue with your premise and suggest you look at the amount of people spreading their and the opinions of others as fact, especially with regard to being against an AIR2 and Jacket BCD's. Most of whom drawing no distinction between the stabilizer jacket & other adjustable shoulder BCD's. There is a herding effect to this regard.

Previously in the 70's we had wing type buoyancy compensation devices such as Watergills At-Pac, Scubapro BCP, and the Dacor Nautilus; the later being very ambitious and unique but thats another story. These wings used plastic Backplates/Backpacks as opposed to the versatile metal plates common today. Though Dive Rite and some others may of been producing metal backplates in limited numbers the consensus back in the late 70's early 80's was back inflate, wings were dangerous =BAD JACKETs were Safe = GOOD! The "heard" took over and spread their "facts" and winged BC's were very rare as a consequence. Most people that I saw using doubles donned the Scubapro stabilizing jacket in the 80's. The stabilizer is good at everything except one thing and that was accommodating attachments, though recent models have greatly improved on this. The wings left the chest area unencumbered while the harness straps provided an excellent place to attach D-rings for attaching tools as many did when they used backpacks without BC's. Stability in all positions other than horizontal (back facing surface) was & is better with the stabilizing jacket; again, if you are not too overweighted the difference will be less noticeable. Now the heard is stampeding in the reverse direction and the stabilizer being lopped in with other jacket style BC's are now BAD and the modular backplate & wing is GOOD! I prefer to stay away from stampedes as they have been known to run off cliffs. Stating conflicting facts & opinions is an attempt to turn a stampede into itself like a cowboy firing a gun to make noise and divert the heard.

 

[fjpatrum]

When I refer to a jacket I am ONLY referring to the stabilizer jacket. For much of my life I had the same issue with clothing fit. Shoulder wide waist narrow, always have to have mid section taken in, this is still the case but to a lesser degree today. If you are "suffering" from a "squeeze" effect (unless perhaps on the surface) then you are very likely overweighted. You should not have much air in your BC during a dive! Now you say that you that with 18lbs of weight you experience a squeeze? With your physique you should almost never experience a squeeze. A Scubapro Stabilizer jacket in Large has around 60lbs of lift. Even if you were the full 18lbs over weighted you would only be using 30% of its capacity. That would mean that nearly 100% of the air in the bladder would be located at the back of the BC when horizontal. I think you may be referring to other "jacket" designs than the Stabilizer Jacket.?

Clearly you are not fat but I do think you were overweighted. I am 5'11" around 188-190lbs which for me is about 20lbs overweight. A few weeks back I did a shore dive with a A 6.5mm semi dry suit (Nova Scotia suit), 6mm boots, 3mm gloves, hood, XL Jet fins, an old Scubapro Double Black Stab Jacket and a little Genesis HP80 steel cylinder. My weight belt had 12lbs on it and I was fine. I may of tapped my inflater once or twice, the bladder was essentially flat against me, any air was at my back. Now, 10 years ago when I was 165-168 I may of been even less inclined to suffer a squeeze because i likely would of used 8-10 lbs of weight and I had less fat on me. I do not use integrated weight for any amount of weight over 8 lbs. My opinion is that weight is best handled at the waist where our center of gravity is. In addition the weight belt is a great out of the way but "in the ready" place to place lift bags, reels etc... Perhaps the design of your integrated weight system was at least in part responsible for your squeeze..?

I do not know who Helemano is or was, I do however take issue with your premise and suggest you look at the amount of people spreading their and the opinions of others as fact, especially with regard to being against an AIR2 and Jacket BCD's. Most of whom drawing no distinction between the stabilizer jacket & other adjustable shoulder BCD's. There is a herding effect to this regard.

Previously in the 70's we had wing type buoyancy compensation devices such as Watergills At-Pac, Scubapro BCP, and the Dacor Nautilus; the later being very ambitious and unique but thats another story. These wings used plastic Backplates/Backpacks as opposed to the versatile metal plates common today. Though Dive Rite and some others may of been producing metal backplates in limited numbers the consensus back in the late 70's early 80's was back inflate, wings were dangerous =BAD JACKETs were Safe = GOOD! The "heard" took over and spread their "facts" and winged BC's were very rare as a consequence. Most people that I saw using doubles donned the Scubapro stabilizing jacket in the 80's. The stabilizer is good at everything except one thing and that was accommodating attachments, though recent models have greatly improved on this. The wings left the chest area unencumbered while the harness straps provided an excellent place to attach D-rings for attaching tools as many did when they used backpacks without BC's. Stability in all positions other than horizontal (back facing surface) was & is better with the stabilizing jacket; again, if you are not too overweighted the difference will be less noticeable. Now the heard is stampeding in the reverse direction and the stabilizer being lopped in with other jacket style BC's are now BAD and the modular backplate & wing is GOOD! I prefer to stay away from stampedes as they have been known to run off cliffs. Stating conflicting facts & opinions is an attempt to turn a stampede into itself like a cowboy firing a gun to make noise and divert the heard.

You waited over a year to respond to my post? Really? Why bother at this point? Read my post again and read the post I responded to again. Your post didn't say anything about a "stab jacket", just a jacket. From my limited knowledge any jacket is a "stab jacket" so maybe I'm missing the difference. Also, in my post I said I was overweighted with 18 pounds. I also said that I was NOT overweighted with 14 pounds. I felt "squeezed" by the jacket in both cases. (To be honest, I think weight integration is part of the problem.) The weight you use, has absolutely no bearing on the weight I use, especially when your exposure protection is completely different. For reference, I was in 40 degree water with 13 mm of neoprene on my core.

I don't put any air in my BC until I reach about 40-50 feet. The squeeze is a result of jackets not fitting my physique, not how much air they need to have in them. In order to get a jacket to fit my chest and my waist simultaneously, without riding up, I have to overly tighten the waist strap, which means any air, at all, causes a squeeze around my lower ribs.

As for the "herd", I choose not to listen to them. I find what works best for me, and use it. If that matches the herd, so be it. If not, that's okay too. I don't propose anyone should use a backplate over a stab jacket. I propose everyone be given the pros and cons of each and then allowed to decide for themselves.

 

[mictrik]

Yes, I am not consistent when it come to monitoring forums, I hardly logged on to this site between March of last year and January this year. I agree there are pro's and cons to each and that is my point. However, there is a stampede towards backplate wing arrangements. Yes, I probably did say just jacket ( i don't need to re-read my post) as for me a "Jacket" is short for Stab jacket. That is confusing to many so I will no longer make such a reference; at one time the stab jacket was the only jacket available. My understanding is that other jackets released after the Stab jacket were made with straps instead of a continuous air cell at the shoulders due to a patent on the Stab Jacket.
I have never heard of anyone referring to a "squeeze" from a jacket being anything other than air related. I am not sure what form of jacket you were using but I know that a Stab jacket would not of squeezed from inflation in your circumstance. The belt..? Well, if you squeeze it I guess you would feel squeeze..lol. The stabilizer jacket may be less likely to ride up due to the small space it has under the arms to do so. A crotch strap is another option. At less than 3% body fat, I would imagine you are in a very unique and rare category... Hopefully a healthy one too.

 

[Milsimdiver]

I have both a wing style and jacket style. I was taught with jackets initially but now I prefer the wing. I keep the jacket as a backup BC.

 

[danvolker]

I started with a steel 72 on a plastic harness and no BC when I was certified in 1972. When the horse collars came out, I hated them, and would not use them....You just got your weighting down, and there was no need for junk like the HC.
In the late 80"s boats would typically refuse a diver without a jacket bc or HC, so I began using a Scubapro stab jacket, an at Pac, and some low profile Cressi I can't recall the name of....Never liked any of them much. Too much drag compared to none at all, and with the lycra suits or 3 mil wet suits, I just had no use for them, my diving being primarily spearfishing.

In the 90's I started getting deeper, going after bigger fish, and with cooler deep water, thicker wetsuits began making a BC useful, with the bouyancy difference. Stab jacket was the usual for me, but I never liked them--too sloppy.

When Carmichael came out with the Halcyon BP/Win around 1997 or 98, this became my favorite immediately..almost as slick as no BC at all, perfect fit, no slop, and you could go from 18 pound tiny wing to be boat legal in warm shallow water, to a 40 pound doubles with in 3 minutes flat ( SAME harness, just a wing swap). The tech BC offerings by DIveRite, OMS, and the others were pathetic in the late 90's...
To this day, I consider all others as either sloppy or as copycats to Halcyon.