Japanese instructor drowns, another missing in Phillipines

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I hate to say it but Steve is right. Diving standards in Japan often leave a lot to be desired. I think it's a cultural thing - Japanese culture doesn't train people in any area of life to be totally independant. Japanese culture is very group orientated. This has advantages in some areas of life - and has disadvantages in others. Personal responsibility is a very touchy area here; this is not the best attitude to have to scuba dive. As Steve said - it's very easy to see at most dive sites in Japan. From many stories I've heard Japanese divers don't enjoy the best reputation for self-reliance or competency in other areas outside of Japan either. Normally Japanese people use Japanese dive schools exclusively when they travel.
 
I don't think we are talking racial profiling. I assume they both refer to the system, not the race...
 
TJP - I agree with you. Diving here in Okinawa (and a few trips to Hawaii) the Japanese dive shops tend to teach a method that is extremely reliant on your instructor/dive master. I know quite a few extremely competant Japanese divers, but the majority tend to need an instructor or dive master. Honestly, I don't think the American shops do much better a lot of the time...

I really don't see this as "racial profiling" at all... Just an observation of cultural differences...

BTW, there are dive shops in Hawaii who do nothing but cater to Japanese divers... Part of it is language, but not all of it is.
 
(Deleted Poster Name), I think you might want to get to know the people involed in this thread a little before making comments. Most of us have lived in Japan for a long time and are married to Japanese. This thread is really old to be digging it up and comment on.
 
It's always potentially dangerous making comments about people of a particular country, race, religion, etc, but I wouldn't equate the earlier comments with racial profiling. Probably 90% of my customers here in Guam are from Japan, and there are things to be aware of. There are a lot of very good Japanese divers, but there are a lot who really need a guide for their own safety. A lot of them are happy to have the guide do everything for them...set up their gear, remove their fins when they get to the boat ladder, carry the gear to & from the van, etc. In GENERAL, the American & European divers I've met are more likely to do this stuff themselves. It's really not a problem, although some people make it INTO one....I just tell the divers to let me know what sort of assistance/help/guiding etc. they need.

(oh...I lived in Japan a few years, speak Japanese, have a Japanese boss...umm, I mean wife, etc)
 
Well - it's not Accident Analysis as my comments were not directed toward the incident in the Philippines but simply about Japanese diving in general. It was also not Racial Profiling as it has nothing to do with people being any particular nationality but to do with a cultural attitude that does not fly very well with the self-reliance necessary for scuba diving.
The Japanese have an expression:
"Deru kui wa utareru". It means roughly: "The post that sticks up will get hammered down".
This is a foundation of Japanese culture and behavior within society. Individualism is frowned upon - something that foreigners living here often have a big problem with. You simply don't question or argue with the system, or you can expect to be put in your place very quickly - and often harshly. The teacher - or sensei - leads, and you follow. This is simply how it is here and I don't think that anyone Japanese or who has lived here for any length of time would disagree with me. (My wife certainly doesn't:wink: )
When this is applied to scuba diving you get divers who don't even know what tables are and do no dive planning themselves, have their gear setup by the DM, have their entire dive monitored by the DM for their depth/air supply/dive time, do safety stops on a line that the DM has shot, and often hold the DMs/Instructors hand throughout the dive. Around Fukuoka and in Okinawa this is what I have seen for almost 100% of the dives done. When I ask questions such as planned depth for a site etc, and then get out my tables to run the numbers, I generally get asked what I'm doing by curious people.
Of course I have seen some Japanese who are perfectly competent divers as well. All of these divers except one I have seen outside of Japan. They mostly have had training abroad or at the very least have done enough dives abroad to learn how others do it and have learned themselves. A lady who I sometimes dive with in Japan has more than 80 dives in Palau, Fiji, and Thailand - she is a perfectly competent diver who I will buddy with anytime.

I am not 'profiling' anyone. I am commenting on what I have actually seen in Japan - and offering a potential reason why that is. It is also an interesting fact that JULIA - the Japanese diving agency - doesn't seem to have equivalency with the other world-wide agencies as far as I can tell. A large part of Japanese diving exists in a world of it's own.
 
Kim:
The Japanese have an expression:
"Deru kui wa utareru". It means roughly: "The post that sticks up will get hammered down".
This is a foundation of Japanese culture and behavior within society. Individualism is frowned upon - something that foreigners living here often have a big problem with. You simply don't question or argue with the system, or you can expect to be put in your place very quickly - and often harshly

Kim - I think that this expression more clearly states the differences between Japan and the west more than any other. I use this example pretty often when explaining Japan to friends back in the US - especially when comparing it with our own expression "the squeaky wheel gets the grease..."

My wife (who also is Okinawan by the way) agrees with this prefectly as well. I think that things are changing over here slowly but the old rules still apply.
 
Things are changing.....but VERY slowly! I live in the countryside depths of Kyushu...and the old rules really do apply!!

Actually though, today I have been thinking a lot about something. I actually think that GUE/DIR might do very well in Japan. The equipment standardization and the emphasis on team...rather than individual...is very well suited to the Japanese mentality. It's simple....the Japanese love that - it has the skill element from constant practice that you see in all the martial arts...the tea ceremony....the carpentery....etc etc.
I would love it if we had a couple of Japanese GUE instructors available to teach DIR/F throughout Japan. Right now the main reason that I haven't really seriously considered DIR/F myself is that even if I did it I'd have no-one to dive with where I live so wouldn't be able to make those kind of dives. I'd do it in a heartbeat if we had even a small core of committed divers in this area who I could practice with.

I really think it would appeal to their way of life if they were exposed to it...and probably catch on like wildfire.

But we'd need the Japanese or Japanese speaking instructors and that'll probably take quite some time.
 
Kim:
Things are changing.....but VERY slowly! I live in the countryside depths of Kyushu...and the old rules really do apply!!

Actually though, today I have been thinking a lot about something. I actually think that GUE/DIR might do very well in Japan. The equipment standardization and the emphasis on team...rather than individual...is very well suited to the Japanese mentality. It's simple....the Japanese love that - it has the skill element from constant practice that you see in all the martial arts...the tea ceremony....the carpentery....etc etc.
I would love it if we had a couple of Japanese GUE instructors available to teach DIR/F throughout Japan. Right now the main reason that I haven't really seriously considered DIR/F myself is that even if I did it I'd have no-one to dive with where I live so wouldn't be able to make those kind of dives. I'd do it in a heartbeat if we had even a small core of committed divers in this area who I could practice with.

I really think it would appeal to their way of life if they were exposed to it...and probably catch on like wildfire.

But we'd need the Japanese or Japanese speaking instructors and that'll probably take quite some time.


I tihnk you are on to something here. Since being exposed to DIR last year and doing my DIR/F course last September, I have thought a lot about diving and this method. I have always approached diving in sort of a martial arts thinking style - even including washing my gear afterwards - almost like zen meditation while I rinse my gear...

There are a small group of us down here in Okinawa that dive DIR and I think that it will grow over time. There are a group of other folks who have adopted a lot of the DIR ideas but haven't had a chance to go to the class yet. I get a lot of questions from Japanese divers on my setup (halcyon bp, eclipse for singles, pioneer for doubles) and try to explain some of the ideas with my limited Japanese.
 
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