LDS fails to deliver OW portion of PADI rescue, says tough luck

[DaleC]

Colliam, I think you are addressing the issue I am having trouble with. I have never heard of a rescue course being offered piece meal. If I were signing up for the course I would expect the opportunity to complete all aspects that would lead to certification. Yes, there may be additional unknown costs for some things like travel but at the end of the day I would expect a clear pathway to certification.

Who buys (or offers) half a rescue course? And if going to an outside source for the latter half, who coordinates the instructor contact, scheduling and transfer of documentation that leads to the issuing of the certification. The $40 instructor, the student, or the shop who was paid for administering said course. To my mind that is the shops responsibility as they are the ones selling the "rescue course".

When I read the Shop description I interpret it to mean that a.) there is a rescue course. b.) there will be some unknown additional costs for the OW portion due to travel. c.) that is part of what we are offering as part of this package. I do not read it to mean a.) you are only buying half the course. b.) obtaining the OW portion needed for certification is up to you, not us.

It is a poor business model that requires your business to send customers to another local competitor for completion of service. What better way to lose future sales. I don't think the shop intended this when writing its description of the course which then leads me to believe they intended to provide that service, although with additional costs.

As some others have said; all of this could have been avoided by providing a list of dates for each session up front. Either you can make the dates or not. If not, a discussion can then be had regarding the transfer of instruction to an outside source.

Shops may see the transfer or hiring of instructors as no big deal but to the average diver, who does not understand how course delivery/certification works, this can be confusing. That's why they go through a shop. The shop acts as the middle man, like a travel agent, who takes care of the little details. If the shop lost an instructor half way through a course it should do everything it can to accommodate the students who are left out in the cold, not leave them up to their own devices to find another instructor themselves.

 

[seriousdiver]

So, checkout dives are not an essential part of a course that requires them in order to pass? How do you expect to get certified without them? This is very basic logic. Regardless of whether they are paid for, scheduled, included - whatever other semantics you want to throw at it - getting the student in the water is just as much part of the class as the classroom session.

It's quite simple and at this point it's like I'm beating a dead horse, a referral form allows you to do the checkout dives with any instructor, if the dive shop had refused to give him a referral form then he might have a case where he didn't get everything he paid for.

This is a case of him not being able to make THEIR schedule and it's not even like they took money from him for it.

The checkout dives are required but the dive shop doesn't or shouldn't be expected to change their schedule to fit the customer's "busy" schedule.

Once a month is reasonable for checkout dives, there are referral forms if you can't make the dive.

Regardless of whatever expectations or semantics YOU want to throw around, if he didn't pay for a service(the checkout dives) he's entitled to a referral form, getting the student in the water isn't part of the class unless they PAID for that portion of the class, otherwise the argument could be made that if the student doesn't pay he's still entitled to the open water dives.

Is it possible you haven't had this much trouble or jumping through hoops because your schedule hasn't conflicted with any dive shop's schedules?

I'm in an area with a few dive shops and the closest diving is a quarry hours away, the dive shops I frequent are small and the classes are small, they do one checkout dive weekend a month, I suspect the OP's dive shops are the same way setup so that they're at the end of the month, allowing for the classes taken during the month the option of completing the checkout dives with them.

I would never expect or demand my dive shops to cater and change the weekends they do diving just so that they can fit my checkout dives in, and I would definitely not go onto a forum just to bitch them out because MY schedule isn't compatible.

I'm still waiting for a receipt or contract from the OP, I got one for my open water certification immediately after paying and IIRC it states that the open water checkout dives are NOT included in the price. I'll have to check when I get home from work.

---------- Post Merged at 10:34 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:29 AM ----------

Just as an aside - it is a poor business model that requires your business to send customers to a competitor for completion of service. What better way to lose future sales.

As opposed to forcing customers to pay for a service that they can't partake in? Good customer service means offering people the ability to finish what conflicting schedules mean you can't finish. It's a great business model for the customer because it allows you to get a referral form and finish a class on YOUR own time and it's a great business model for the shop because it allows them to accept other shop's referrals while still allowing some flexibility for the customers.

Every single dive shop I've looked at in my area offers the open water checkouts separate and states that you can get a referral form if you can't make THEIR dives.

Would you be even more upset if you paid for the open water checkouts when signing up for the rescue courses but signed up knowing that they do checkout dives when you can't make it?

It's quite simple, if he can't make the checkout dives it's a good thing they didn't charge him for it, if they refuse to give him a referral form then yes they failed to deliver everything that he paid for.

---------- Post Merged at 10:42 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:29 AM ----------

As some others have said; all of this could have been avoided by providing a list of dates for each session up front. Either you can make the dates or not. If not, a discussion can then be had regarding the transfer of instruction to an outside source.

According to the dive shop they did provide the list of dates.

According to the OP they did not provide the list of dates.

The OP refuses to post his receipt or contract stating what he paid for, so I'm inclined to use the dive shop's website as a base reference to say that yes, the dates were at the very least posted on the website if not in the dive shop. Most of the dive shops I've been have a board that show what dates they do checkout dives.

 

[DaleC]

The referral form is meant to allow local divers to do their OW portion of certification in a tropical destination, where the second provider is not in competition with the first for anything beyond that initial service - not in the same local location with competitors. That's dumb.

I do not know what really transpired between the two sides in this circumstance and really don't care. However, as a self employed person for 11 years who generated 100% of his business via word of mouth, I do understand the basics of customer service.

 

[seriousdiver]

The referral form is meant to allow local divers to do their certification in a tropical destination, where the second provider is not in competition with the first for anything beyond that initial service - not in the same local location with competitors. That's dumb.

In a global economy the second provider is in competition with the first regardless of where they're located. If dive shops offer certification weekends/checkout dives on different weekends then they can both coexist.

I do not know what really transpired between the two sides in this circumstance and really don't care. However, as a self employed person for 11 years who generated 100% of his business via word of mouth, I do understand the basics of customer service.

I've been in the customer service business for over a decade myself, and I don't worry about competition because making my customers happy is my priority regardless of whether they're shopping with me or not.

You should also understand that you can't please everyone and that some people will set out to badmouth you regardless of the level of service you provide.

The thing about online complaints is that you rarely get both sides of the story and often the complainer embellishes the story to make his case look worse than it really is.

I mean you can see from the very first post that he feels he's obligated to get certification even though he didn't pay for it, can't make their dive schedule, and is essentially saying the LDS broke a contract.

Do you really think he's being impartial in his portrayal of what happens?

Given that this isn't my business in question, it's not my place to say what happened, but I'm tired of everyone hopping on a bandwagon to destroy the reputation of a company based on one complaint.

 

[DaleC]

In a global economy the second provider is in competition with the first regardless of where they're located. If dive shops offer certification weekends/checkout dives on different weekends then they can both coexist.

No, tropical destinations just provide the OW portion of a course. They don't sell the (big ticket) gear, continuing ed or trips. And, the shop knows the diver is going on a vacation regardless (which they can't control) unlike sending a diver to a second local location (which they can control). Most divers go to different destinations, not the same one over and over so the destination really gets one shot (unless they are good). If the destination is good they try to retain the tourist, not refer them to a second destination for a portion of their vacation.

A local provider does compete and in a way, already has a subconscious edge, because the first shop couldn't meet the customers needs. All they need to do is convince the customer they can do it better than the first guy. If you don't refer, the customer never gets the opportunity to know different till much further down the road (after they've purchased gear, con ed etc)... Refering a new customer with all that potential to an identical local provider is a poor business model - for the shop. PADI doesn't care because it gets paid regardless.

I've been in the customer service business for over a decade myself, and I don't worry about competition because making my customers happy is my priority regardless of whether they're shopping with me or not.

Unless you are making money doing that it's called charity. Businesses succeed because they have plans and part of the plan should be how to capture and retain customers. Making customers happy is a tool to retain customers, not an end in itself. I made my customers happy too but I always had the intention of offering them my services. I wasn't just being a nice guy. On the occasions that I referred them to another similar provider (either because I was too busy or they were a PITA) I knew I was giving them away. I never depended on them to either come back or to receive a reciprocal referral from my competitor.

You should also understand that you can't please everyone and that some people will set out to badmouth you regardless of the level of service you provide.

The thing about online complaints is that you rarely get both sides of the story and often the complainer embellishes the story to make his case look worse than it really is.

I mean you can see from the very first post that he feels he's obligated to get certification even though he didn't pay for it, can't make their dive schedule, and is essentially saying the LDS broke a contract.

Do you really think he's being impartial in his portrayal of what happens?

Given that this isn't my business in question, it's not my place to say what happened, but I'm tired of everyone hopping on a bandwagon to destroy the reputation of a company based on one complaint.

True, but you can avoid 99% of those issues by having clearly worded language and specific details of expectations.

I don't know who is being what when where about dates in this case but I do think it is reasonable to expect a contiguous pathway to complete certification if enrolled in a rescue course unless specifically stated otherwise. In this case, I don't believe the shop did that. My interpretation is that the OW portion would be provided but at an additional cost and I believe it would have been provided if the shop had not lost the instructor. That is the shops problem to solve, not the OP's.

If the shop doesn't want to do the work of a middleman then they should stop presenting themselves as one.

 

[SkimFisher]

In a global economy the second provider is in competition with the first regardless of where they're located. If dive shops offer certification weekends/checkout dives on different weekends then they can both coexist.




I've been in the customer service business for over a decade myself, and I don't worry about competition because making my customers happy is my priority regardless of whether they're shopping with me or not.

You should also understand that you can't please everyone and that some people will set out to badmouth you regardless of the level of service you provide.

The thing about online complaints is that you rarely get both sides of the story and often the complainer embellishes the story to make his case look worse than it really is.

I mean you can see from the very first post that he feels he's obligated to get certification even though he didn't pay for it, can't make their dive schedule, and is essentially saying the LDS broke a contract.

Do you really think he's being impartial in his portrayal of what happens?

Given that this isn't my business in question, it's not my place to say what happened, but I'm tired of everyone hopping on a bandwagon to destroy the reputation of a company based on one complaint.

So if it's ok for you to paint him as a liar can I paint you as a jackass? All the implications you're making are no better than what you're accusing the OP of. Just want to point that out.

 

[RJP]

Well, I'm done here, stated the facts as I see them,

The facts "as someone sees them" is usually refered to as OPINION.

I'm just saying...

---------- Post Merged at 02:50 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:47 PM ----------

The referral form is meant to allow local divers to do their OW portion of certification in a tropical destination...

I just reviewed the referral paperwork, and I can't find that specification anywhere on it. Perhaps you can point me to where you found this information?

 

[DaleC]

Meant, intended, designed, best used for... Sure one could use it any way one wants (and no doubt people do) but do you believe the main intention behind it was so shop A can teach half a course and then send the student to shop B in the same town.

or...

Do you believe it is so a shop can teach the academic portion of a course "in house" but allow the student to do the OW portion while on holiday at a tropical destination. Particularly landlocked shops or shops where weather shortens the available diving season.

It's a tool which serves a purpose for those types of shops, and it can be a tool to resolve some local conflicts too, but it can also be misused to conveniently allow shops to bail on their responsibility to follow through on what they proposed to deliver. Which one is happening in the OP I cannot say.

My point was that, teaching half a course then tossing the referral card to the student and saying good luck on the second half is not what the referral was intended for. As well, using it locally, without specific reciprocal agreements in place, is short term convenient/long term dumb.


This would be a good subject to bring up one of the many "why do LDS's fail?" threads.

 

[nelsonrl]

I tried to read all of this thread and will not voice an opinion on who is right or who is wrong. All I can think to add is ....

In a situation like this pick up the phone or the car keys and go have a talk. To much is lost in translaton in emails and public forums. The OP and shop obviously had a difference of opinion that, just maybe, could have been resolved with an old fashioned conversation.

 

[USFpsychDiver]

The facts "as someone sees them" is usually refered to as OPINION.

I'm just saying...

Actually, there is a distinct difference. I'm an experimental psychologist, and we recognize observer effects -- two observers may witness the same event yet report it differently (google Clever Hans; not a perfect example, but gives an idea of how people can innocently misreport observed 'facts', i.e. that a horse can do math). I believe I have made clear distinctions between what I observed as facts and what are my opinions based on those facts. However, recognizing observer effects, I do realized that these are facts from my perspective, and may be skewed by my perspective.

Fact: I have never been offered an OW checkout opportunity by either the shop or the instructor.
Fact: I have made multiple requests for checkout dives and have provided at least 10 possible weekends over four months.
Fact: I paid the shop $260.
Fact: This fee did not include open water dive costs, but did include tuition and materials.
Fact: The instructor no longer works with the shop.
Fact: The shop says I should arrange OW dives with the instructor.
Fact: The shop says they have met their obligation to me.

Speculation: The shop chose to use instruction staff for the more numerous and thus more lucrative open water students rather than the rescue students on the dates they had trips scheduled.
Speculation: The shop had a falling out with their PADI rescue instructor over payment and doesn't have anyone to do our checkout dives any more since they are primarily a SSI shop.
Speculation: The shop feels the economic pinch and wants to hang on to the $260 in hand rather than any possible future income from a satisfied customer.

Opinion: The open water dives are part of the course; the fact that I hadn't paid for them yet didn't mean they weren't part of the course; I hadn't been given a date to pay for.
Opinion: I should not have to be responsible for finding my own instructor for the OW portion should the original instructor be unavailable.
Opinion: A professionally run operation would have offered a sincere apology for their failure to be able to deliver a complete course and offered a full refund in cash or in store credit applied to an alternative course (i.e. SSI stress and rescue).