Learned Wrong...

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Another thing that pisses me off is dm's in vacation spots that put loa diver's on their octo and continuing the dive. I understand why they do it and don't fault the individual dm's, but its a bad example from someone in a position of authority, making it seem like it would be ok to just run your tank down, then just suckoff your buddies tank.

I don't have a problem with it really. It actually has a huge benefit in that it gives people practice in doing air shares, so when a real problem arises, they should be less anxious.

In fact, when I started teaching my kids to scuba (at 8 yrs old), I would give them a 30 cu-ft tank, no BC and would keep them under my arm a bunch and let them suck off my 5 ft hose to extend the dive.
 
I don't have a problem with it really. It actually has a huge benefit in that it gives people practice in doing air shares, so when a real problem arises, they should be less anxious.

In fact, when I started teaching my kids to scuba (at 8 yrs old), I would give them a 30 cu-ft tank, no BC and would keep them under my arm a bunch and let them suck off my 5 ft hose to extend the dive.

Uh-oh... Now you went and whacked that bee's nest with a stick. :)

I set up my 10 year-old twin girls with an old AT-pak laced with a Hogarthian harness (well, without the crotch strap anyway), no BC, and a pair of 2 pound weights (not ditchable, FWIW). An SPG, a first and second stage on a 22" hose, a 13 cuft bottle, and all they needed was a mask and they were having a ball in the pool (5' deep).

I gave each of them about an hour of training and supervision, and at that weight, each of them was about 1 pound bouyant in the rig. They were also able to stand on the bottom.

In all, I believe that the benefits outweighed the risks... They learned confidence in the water, how to control their bouyancy with their lungs, mask clearing, why you spit in your mask, and mostly... Personal responsibility for yourself and your things. They learned very quickly about how their actions had direct, immediate and uncompromising results. For example, 0 psi meant 0 psi. Period. Their well-being required some personal responsibility. Share. Dad (actually sorta "stepdad," but a similar role) can take things away as easily as give if you have the wrong attitude.

Mostly, though, they learned confidence in the water, which translates to confidence in life. It translates to personal accountability. These children are less likely to blame others for their situation (good or bad) as they grow older and are more familiar with their own capabilities and what they can do to affect their surroundings.

It's my belief that this translates to a more empowered adolescent, and thus happier. I hope that this makes their teenage years easier... And much more enjoyable than they would be otherwise.

The Serenity Prayer goes something like, "Lord, help me to accept the things I can not change, change those things that I can, and grant me the wisdom to know the difference." I'm sure that someone else knows the exact wording... But I believe that from the twins' experience with things like the "mini-rig" I built for them... Especially at such a young age... Ideals like the Serenity Prayer can be a reality, and they're less likely to feel unempowered by their surroundings and less likely to slough personal accountability and responsibility for what they do and say.

...Which I believe is a huge problem in society today... A lack of personal responsibility and accountability.

The examples in this thread of divers being taught wrong - whatever the example is - are clearly not the divers' fault if that's how they were taught. If, for example, a diver was taught to inflate or deflate their BC to rise or fall in the water column respectively (a common misconception known as "riding the elevator"), they can not be blamed for that practice. The fault of incorrect or shoddy practices sits firmly on the shoulders of the teacher... Be it an online source, personal interaction with an instructor, or a certifying agency's teachings. However, ultimately, each individual diver is clearly responsibile for their own life. It would be rational for them to verify what they are taught with practice and research into supporting articles and teachings. When there is a concensus between practice and/or multiple sources of information, a diver can increase his confidence in his learning.

When I finished my PADI Advanced Open Water certification years ago and first became interested in the teachings of GUE (which agreed with what I'd been taught so far, only with additional intensity and importance relative to certain topics like planning the dive, bouyancy techniques, consistency in dive practices, proper trim, and the importance of a buddy), my instructor (who was not GUE certified, nor supportive) told me, "Well, that's great... Your PADI AOW certification is actually not a means to the end of your study on how to dive... It's the beginning. Think of it as a license to learn how to dive, not a license to dive in and of itself."

What he was saying is true for every level of certification... Your C-card (whatever level) is really a license to learn, not a diploma.

...So if a diver's been taught something screwed up, then it's not their fault. But if they continue to dive screwed up despite evidence to the contrary, then yes, that IS their fault.

Personal accountability lacks in today's liabel-centric society. Ultimately, that's what keeps a diver alive. That's what helps them to navigate an academic minefield of misteachings from either individual instructors or poor examples or even entire agencies.

...And therein lies the solution to this thread.
 
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Another thing that pisses me off is dm's in vacation spots that put loa diver's on their octo and continuing the dive. I understand why they do it and don't fault the individual dm's, but its a bad example from someone in a position of authority, making it seem like it would be ok to just run your tank down, then just suckoff your buddies tank.

This isn't wrong in and of itself (although it's commonly taught that it is) ... the actions are contextual in nature, and depend on a lot of things ... like how the DM is set up, how much gas they have to donate, how much gas is remaining in the LOA diver's cylinder, and the overall demeanor of the person on the business end of the octo. Like almost all scuba decisions, you weigh the benefits against the downsides and decide accordingly.

If the DM has a lot of available gas to spare, the diver is calm, the dive is relatively benign in nature, and the other divers involved appear to be capable, then I see nothing wrong with what he's doing. I'll also point out that this is something I would do with an LOA diver, but NOT with an OOA diver, because if for some reason the DM needs to break away to deal with another issue, the LOA diver still has a gas reserve to fall back on.

So it is a circumstantial situation.

On our tropical vacations, I will often donate my long hose to my dive buddy in order to extend our dive ... she uses her air more quickly than I do. But I will first tell the dive guide accompanying us that this is something we might do, and it won't be an emergency. I will also do it well before she reaches reserves ... so that after she's breathed off of my cylinder for a while she can go back on her own. There is nothing inherently wrong ... or even difficult ... about doing so. To my concern, it's a great way to practice air shares, in fact. Since I dive with a 7-foot hose, it gives us a degree of freedom to continue our dive in the same relative positions we use when we're not sharing air ... and we will commonly continue taking pictures while sharing air, because we have a system worked out anyway that keeps us in close proximity with each other while doing so.

Most things diving aren't inherently "right" or "wrong" ... they're dependent on the circumstances of the dive and the ability of the divers involved.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Another thing that pisses me off is dm's in vacation spots that put loa diver's on their octo and continuing the dive. I understand why they do it and don't fault the individual dm's, but its a bad example from someone in a position of authority, making it seem like it would be ok to just run your tank down, then just suckoff your buddies tank.

This isn't wrong in and of itself (although it's commonly taught that it is) ... the actions are contextual in nature, and depend on a lot of things ... like how the DM is set up, how much gas they have to donate, how much gas is remaining in the LOA diver's cylinder, and the overall demeanor of the person on the business end of the octo. Like almost all scuba decisions, you weigh the benefits against the downsides and decide accordingly.
I agree with Bob.

When I have seen this done, the air sharing was done BEFORE the diver was what you would normally call low on gas. The first diver in the group to reach a certain PSI (with plenty still left) would share air on a 7 foot hose until the second diver reached that level. At that point the first diver would return the regulator and the dive would continue, with the group ascent starting soon after. When I saw it done, it was on a group trip, and I was the group leader. Once the DM saw that I was pretty good with my air, we extended it and had me share with the second diver, also using my 7 foot hose. That ensured that we had nice long dives as a group, without a need for the group to ascend because a single person got low on air quickly. No one was ever in a situation where they were truly low on air, and everyone got on the boat with plenty of gas in reserve.
 
This isn't wrong in and of itself (although it's commonly taught that it is) ...

...

On our tropical vacations, I will often donate my long hose to my dive buddy in order to extend our dive ... she uses her air more quickly than I do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

We do exactly the same thing on easy dives in the tropics and I don't see any issue with that. Unfortunately though, I am not the one who is donating my reg but receiving it from my buddy :wink:
 
I also "borrow a cup of air" from my wife during many tropical (AL80) dives -- typically when I reach 1500 psi and she is 2000+ so I'll "borrow" some of her air until she's at ~`1400 and then I'll go back on my own gas.

The first time we did this we hadn't thought to tell the DM/guide whose eyes got very big for a while until he figured we really were OK. I also got a lecture from a PADI instructor (actually my first DM instructor) who told me in no uncertain terms "That if you go onto someone eles's air the ONLY THING TO DO is to ascend." It never occurred to him that it was possible to swim side-by-side, take pictures, whatever, while "borrowing a cup of air." Of course, in his world, anyone who was sharing air would always be: a. Vertical; b. In a bearhug; and c. On a hose so short you were nose-to-nose.
 
Weight system?



I get why you (and others) like the standardized configuration. I have no issue with that.

I am left wondering, though, with the 10+ times greater dive experience and I am sure significantly more extensive training and higher skill level you have, why you have so much of an issue sorting out other peoples gear. Granted, I have only had 4 total different dive buddies, but I have had zero difficulty familiarizing myself with their gear, and have never found it different enough in the fundamentals to be a cause for concern.

And if you don't have an issue with sorting out other peoples gear, I am left wondering why you chose the words that you did.

Perhaps I should clarify. I have no problem, and in fact am very diligent, about becoming acquainted with pretty much any gear configuration if I buddy up with someone on the boat. I even go so far as to touch/handle the weight releases, octo releases, and push the inflate/deflate controls. see where theq quick release buckles are, etc.. Any experienced diver can do this ON THE BOAT. And, the key is "acquainted". One time is after all only one time.

When there are difficulties and you are 100' in a strong current, or inside a wreck where it is silty and vis is poor, and there is stress on the dive team, things can be a lot different. One-time acquaintance with the gear may not be enough to instinctively know where the essential items are at the key moment when seconds count. I consider myself exceptionally able to "think through" a situation, but the elimination of unfamiliar variables would make the process much faster and instinctive.

With a common gear configuration, one important variable -- finding the right piece of gear when things might be critical -- is eliminated.

In response to Thal's comment, I do not view this as an equipment solution to a training problem. Where am I going to get repetitive training on the many different gears out there? I have a lot of dives, but that does not mean I can possibly know the different variations out there.

And, even if common gear configuration is an "equipment solution" to the concerns of that excellent article, why not?

That being said, I consider myself an exceptionally competent buddy. From what I see, I do far more than most to go over my buddy's set-up at least once (once is a lot better than none, which what I often see).

Also, I have only had to deal with an emergence once in all my dives, when my buddy went OOG at 140'. This was in the days before octopi, so there was a "common gear" solution in the form of mandatory buddy breathing. Fortunately he remained calm and we managed to surface safely. that example, however, shows how beneficial universal training on a common gear sharing procedure was.
 
I don't have a problem with it really. It actually has a huge benefit in that it gives people practice in doing air shares, so when a real problem arises, they should be less anxious.

This isn't wrong in and of itself (although it's commonly taught that it is) ... the actions are contextual in nature, and depend on a lot of things ... like how the DM is set up, how much gas they have to donate, how much gas is remaining in the LOA diver's cylinder, and the overall demeanor of the person on the business end of the octo. Like almost all scuba decisions, you weigh the benefits against the downsides and decide accordingly.

If the DM has a lot of available gas to spare, the diver is calm, the dive is relatively benign in nature, and the other divers involved appear to be capable, then I see nothing wrong with what he's doing. I'll also point out that this is something I would do with an LOA diver, but NOT with an OOA diver, because if for some reason the DM needs to break away to deal with another issue, the LOA diver still has a gas reserve to fall back on.

So it is a circumstantial situation.

On our tropical vacations, I will often donate my long hose to my dive buddy in order to extend our dive ... she uses her air more quickly than I do. But I will first tell the dive guide accompanying us that this is something we might do, and it won't be an emergency. I will also do it well before she reaches reserves ... so that after she's breathed off of my cylinder for a while she can go back on her own. There is nothing inherently wrong ... or even difficult ... about doing so. To my concern, it's a great way to practice air shares, in fact. Since I dive with a 7-foot hose, it gives us a degree of freedom to continue our dive in the same relative positions we use when we're not sharing air ... and we will commonly continue taking pictures while sharing air, because we have a system worked out anyway that keeps us in close proximity with each other while doing so.

Most things diving aren't inherently "right" or "wrong" ... they're dependent on the circumstances of the dive and the ability of the divers involved.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Agreed that it is highly dependent on the situation, I should have been more clear. Two divers who know their gas usage and plan to share air when one is an airhog is absolutely appropriate. My concern comes in from, first, the one to receive air is "normally" the one on the boat you can see does 1 or 2 dives every few years on vacation. Their skills are bad to start out with (which is probably why they are the largest gas user), and they may not have the wherewith all to deal with the reg being pulled from their mouth unexpectedly (yes, I know they should, but they are the ones with now 2 reg hoses trailing behind). Second, it also ties up the DM from being able to quickly deal with any other situation that arises, and third, it sets a poor example for that "new" diver that now thinks that this is an acceptable method for gas management, it trivializes LOA/OOA situations if not discussed (which I don't ever recall seeing).
 
Another thing that pisses me off is dm's in vacation spots that put loa diver's on their octo and continuing the dive. I understand why they do it and don't fault the individual dm's, but its a bad example from someone in a position of authority, making it seem like it would be ok to just run your tank down, then just suckoff your buddies tank.

I know I have DM who was fired for doing just that and rightly so as should another of the divers got into problems he would have been unable to react and likely wouldn't have noticed at all.
 
Not long ago an old timer on an SB thread was quite insistent that it was dead wrong to put the regulator in the mouth during a CESA because if you do, you will be tempted to inhale. Apparently that thinking was once quite prevalent. He held to that belief even though people pointed out that if you are desperate to inhale with the regulator out you will inhale water and drown, whereas with the regulator in the worst than can happen is that you don't get more air. He held to that belief even though people pointed out that you are not only likely to get "one last breath," you are likely to get several last breaths during the ascent.

Not to mention the fact that, unless the exhaust valve is malfunctioning, you shouldn't get any water at all....just 'nothing.' If you didn't get water on that last breath before running out of air, you won't get any if you try to "sip for more" on the way up either..... Not to mention, if you inadvertently 'gasp' or have a strong breathing spasm on the way up, having that reg in will keep the water OUT.
 

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