Legionnaires disease

[H2ODoc]

Unfortunately the press doesn't care about specifics when it can generalize if it helps to scare people.

Good point. Legionella bacteria are everywhere. We have outbreaks in the US / Canada / Europe / all over the place on a regular basis. Most hotels (I'd bet 98%) never even test for it. All hospitals *should* test for it, but once again, most don't.

It's fairly easy to eradicate (my company does that), you just have to be diligent about chlorination and cleaning of water tanks, etc.

 

[DandyDon]

Just read this on another travel forum:
News From Cozumel

Again: "Please note that the Consular message refers only to Reef Regency/Wyndham Cozumel."

Don't worry, Dandy Don will come up with a portable Legionnaire’s Disease detector for us.

Spoiler

Hey I did get two affordable, portable CO analyzers developed, but I suspect that most of y'all are still diving on luck and false trust.

At the very least he'll be Googling up a storm and posting 101 links. :cool2:

[-]Would pneumonia shots help?[/-] Taking the shower head off and using a steady stream should since it's only a problem in mists. Eh, I'd stay somewhere else until they clean their problem.

I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often - if I recall correctly, tap water is stored on roofs of most buildings in those black tanks. Even if the water is chlorinated, those tanks will allow the chlorine to degrade, and therefore, allow bacteria to thrive.

Then again, maybe the infection source was from the cooling tower.

Hold your breath in the shower, people. :shocked2:

Is Coz tap water chlorinated? We don't drink it.

I think the water stored on roofs is the "hot" water, or at least warmed that way to reduce heating costs - but then we all like hot showers.

You'd think the hotel would install chlorination or other system. It is one of the pricier properties that I would never stay at.

 

[TSandM]

No, the pneumonia shot doesn't protect against Legionnaire's. The shot is against Streptococcus pneumoniae, various serotypes. It's a totally different organism. Legionella is relatively uncommon, and most people with normal lungs and immune systems won't contract it. But exposed to a large enough dose, it can make virtually anybody sick, and some people very sick.

It would be my suspicion that a hotel where the organism has been identified, will be doing everything in its power to eradicate it, even in Mexico. The combination of bad publicity and liability from ill guests is too powerful a financial incentive to ignore.

 

[DandyDon]

No, the pneumonia shot doesn't protect against Legionnaire's. The shot is against Streptococcus pneumoniae, various serotypes. It's a totally different organism. Legionella is relatively uncommon, and most people with normal lungs and immune systems won't contract it. But exposed to a large enough dose, it can make virtually anybody sick, and some people very sick.

It would be my suspicion that a hotel where the organism has been identified, will be doing everything in its power to eradicate it, even in Mexico. The combination of bad publicity and liability from ill guests is too powerful a financial incentive to ignore.

Ok thanks. I try to keep mine current anyway, but if the hotel was serious about stopping the problem, I have to wonder why it's been there repeatedly for 2-1/2 years?

As promised, I did google, and Wiki has a pretty good article, if accurate: Legionellosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I was trying to remember the news from 1976 thinking it was an evap cooler, but maybe my mind created that memory from the actual reports now attributed to "the cooling tower of the hotel’s air conditioning system, which then spread it through the entire building."

If I am right that the roof tanks for for prewarming water before it goes thru actual hot water heating, then times when everyone showers at once and residents turn off cold water mixing to shower in whatever comes directly from the tank might be the most dangerous...

"# 70 to 80 °C (158 to 176 °F): Disinfection range
# At 66 °C (151 °F): Legionellae die within 2 minutes
# At 60 °C (140 °F): Legionellae die within 32 minutes
# At 55 °C (131 °F): Legionellae die within 5 to 6 hours
# Above 50 °C (122 °F): They can survive but do not multiply
# 35 to 46 °C (95 to 115 °F): Ideal growth range
# 20 to 50 °C (68 to 122 °F): Legionellae growth range"​

Even if Coz water was chlorinated, if I am correct about the warming tanks - chlorine will evaporate out of warmed water quickly.

Excerpting some more info of possible interest, bold emphasis mine...

Potential sources of such contaminated water include cooling towers used in industrial cooling water systems as well as in large central air conditioning systems, evaporative coolers, hot water systems, showers, windshield washers,[8] whirlpool spas, architectural fountains, room-air humidifiers, ice making machines, misting equipment, and similar disseminators that draw upon a public water supply. The disease may also be transmitted from contaminated aerosols generated in hot tubs if the disinfection and maintenance program is not done rigorously.[9] Freshwater ponds, creeks, and ornamental fountains are potential sources of Legionella.[10] The disease is particularly associated with hotels, fountains, cruise ships and hospitals with old, poorly maintained pipework and cooling systems. A study published by the European Journal of Epidemiology points to automotive windshield washing systems as a source, recommending the addition of an antibacterial agent to the system's reservoir.[11]

A recent research study provided evidence that Legionella pneumophila, the causative agent of Legionnaires' disease, can travel airborne at least 6 km from its source. (3.72822 mi.)

According to the journal Infection Control and Hospital Epidemiology, hospital-acquired Legionella pneumonia has a fatality rate of 28%, and the principal source of infection in such cases is the drinking-water distribution system.

 

[loudives]

Have stayed there 8 times since 2008 and am still alive!!! Wife and I have not gotten sick, although in wifes case the alcohol intake was a preventive measure for all of Mexico's diseases. Now I know why the hotel section was closed for cleaning in October. All guests were moved to condo section while all hotel rooms, buffet, main pool were totally cleaned.

Will be there again in Feb. Showers will be done with bottles of Tequila!!!

 

[TCDiver1]

Ok thanks. I try to keep mine current anyway, but if the hotel was serious about stopping the problem, I have to wonder why it's been there repeatedly for 2-1/2 years?

As promised, I did google, and Wiki has a pretty good article, if accurate: Legionellosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I was trying to remember the news from 1976 thinking it was an evap cooler, but maybe my mind created that memory from the actual reports now attributed to "the cooling tower of the hotel’s air conditioning system, which then spread it through the entire building."

This is not how cooling towers work.

Related to the inside of a building they operate in a closed way in that they do not communicate direct with air but tranfer heat thermally through a closed liquid medium such as water being pumped through coils, condensers and such. No way a contaminated tower can spread the bad juju directly throughout the hotel unless the closed loop is leaking. And even then it's pretty rare considering the pressures and temperatures usually being used.

Now outside, where it's warm, where the tower fan is rejecting heat and possibly misting a air/water mix (depending on the type of cooling tower) is the place you have to be concerned about. It's relatively easy to treat chemically right in the tower but i would be surprised if many operation in Coz treat their towers properly. It takes a pretty high level of commitment and understanding of water chemistry. From what i've seen in Coz most of the maintenance staff in those places are glorified janitors or grounds people.

That ain't keeping me away from Coz though. It just keeps me away from the cooling towers in Coz.

 

[H2ODoc]

This is not how cooling towers work.

Related to the inside of a building they operate in a closed way in that they do not communicate direct with air but tranfer heat thermally through a closed liquid medium such as water being pumped through coils, condensers and such. No way a contaminated tower can spread the bad juju directly throughout the hotel unless the closed loop is leaking. And even then it's pretty rare considering the pressures and temperatures usually being used.

Now outside, where it's warm, where the tower fan is rejecting heat and possibly misting a air/water mix (depending on the type of cooling tower) is the place you have to be concerned about. It's relatively easy to treat chemically right in the tower but i would be surprised if many operation in Coz treat their towers properly. It takes a pretty high level of commitment and understanding of water chemistry. From what i've seen in Coz most of the maintenance staff in those places are glorified janitors or grounds people.

That ain't keeping me away from Coz though. It just keeps me away from the cooling towers in Coz.

Yes, but.....

> There are plenty of cases where the cooling tower "drift" (small droplets of water from the top of the tower) have travelled into air intake systems for buildings/hotels and infected people. ALL cooling towers lose some water to this drift. Even brand new, and well-maintained towers.

> The cooling tower drift can travel a long distance, so sitting by the pool sipping that pina colada 100 yards from the cooling tower isn't out of the possibility of infection range.

>Even in the states, most cooling towers I see are not treated to the level to ensure that Legionella is likely killed. You'd be surprised. I'd venture a few $$$ that your local hotel / commercial building / hospital has Legionella bacteria floating around. Very few commercial buildings test for it. One study showed that about 50% of all cooling towers contain Legionella. The reason we don't see more infections is that people aren't lounging by the cooling tower on a regular basis.

>More likely is that you'll be infected from tap water, IMO. In MX (or anywhere), if the chlorine levels aren't high enough, the buggers thrive in the domestic water (hot or cold), and when you step under that shower head, the splashing water droplets are your source. If domestic hot water isn't maintained >122 deg F, the chances rise dramatically.

>Pools and spas can be a source as well, but in the states at least, I think commercial properties are required to have a CPO (Certified Pool Operator) monitor the water chemistry on a regular basis to prevent such an outbreak.

I guess my point is that infection from cooling towers is just as likely in MX as it is anywhere else. Tap water? Probably more likely in MX than in the states where we chlorinate heavily.

 

[Nursediver]

Just another reason never to rinse your mask/snorkel/regulator in the community rinse tank. Choose somewhere else for these items.

 

[robertarak]

Due to the numerous cases of Ligionnaire's Disease reported in every hotel and resort on Cozumel, all of Mexico, The United Stated, Canada, and every county on the planet (tests have not yet been performed on other planets), the makers (me) of Shower Air suggest you buy one for every bathroom in your home, then a back up for each bathroom in your home. Also a main and back up travel Shower Air.

Operators are standing by to direct you to our off-shore paypal account.

 

[redacted]

Due to the numerous cases of Ligionnaire's Disease reported in every hotel and resort on Cozumel, all of Mexico, The United Stated, Canada, and every county on the planet (tests have not yet been performed on other planets), the makers (me) of Shower Air suggest you buy one for every bathroom in your home, then a back up for each bathroom in your home. Also a main and back up travel Shower Air.

Operators are standing by to direct you to our off-shore paypal account.

Here we go again. With absolutely no consideration of what your shower air consumption is, you are going to foist upon inadequately trained showerers an inadequate device. It seems to me that the rule of 1/3rd should be applied in the shower (1/3 for soaping up, 1/3rd for rinsing, and 1/3rd in reserve for emergencies). And solo showering is just crazy.