Line skills

[InTheDrink]

I don't see it as worrying . . . I see it as excitement and curiosity.

Precisely

One of the things you will learn from cave training is that, in many situations, there IS no formulaic answer. Sometimes you make judgment calls; sometimes there are additional circumstances that would make the "classic" answer precisely wrong. Cave divers have to be thinking divers.

This is one of the things I am taking away from this, the 'no right answer'. I like this and importantly, I like to be able to have this mindset especially when someone is telling me there is only one right answer.

But to answer your question about dubious tie-offs, keeping the line nicely taut and doing the best job of securing the tie is the beginning, but if you have any doubts about a tie, find another one nearby. Pulling off a tie will create slack line, and what you want to do is keep that to a minimum.

Makes sense thanks

As far as slack line management goes, what Sas is describing is the situation where you are reeling out and swimming faster than you are spooling up line. This can easily happen in high flow cave. It will also happen if the line makes a big directional change, and your helpful buddy removes the tie (something of which I've been guilty!) In that case, the cause of the slack line is obvious, and your buddy manages the slack until you can catch up with the reel. Finding slack line in other circumstances, as laurin says, is more sinister, because it may mean broken line, and the last thing you want to do, until you understand why the slack is there, is to start winding it up. You may find yourself looking at a cut or broken end, with a hundred feet or more of unlined cave to negotiate to find the remainder.

I think I'm going to need to experience or practise this to get my head around it as I'm struggling with what you people mean with certain terms (no doubt very obvious and just me being thick) e.g. 'reeling out and swimming faster than you are spooling in line'. I would have thought that reeling out is letting line out and spooling in is the opposite. But in this case I don't need you to explain everything to me (although I know you would! ) - this stuff will become apparent when I'm doing it. The broad principles or keeping line taut and that your buddy can work with you with this is probably all I need to know for now.

Cheers,
John

 

[InTheDrink]

Here is another cause for slack line.

We were coming out of the Devil's Eye a while ago. This is a straight down entry with a sharp turn to level at the bottom of the opening. Daylight is clearly visible from the bottom of the initial entry. We tied off at the bottom to start the entry to avoid what I am about to describe. When we returned and reached the exit, we saw that someone else had tied off at the top of the entry and had run the line pretty much straight down the narrow shaft. I undid the last tie, so I was the last to leave. Trying to squeeze by the other team's line, the teammate immediately in front of me hooked it on some of his gear. By the time we were able to get him free of it, the line was pretty darn slack.

So, if you want to avoid slack line, don't run it down the middle of narrow passages where people following you are going to get caught on it.

This makes a lot of sense.

Another question: do you use anything other than tie-offs? It *sounds* like other devices other than ties could be used to secure line snugly and neatly on a cave wall. In rock climbing we have countless devices (nuts, cams, friends, slings) that allow us to tie into rock (mostly) securely. They are generally placed with the intention that they will take the weight of a fall, and the line of force is important and normally predictable. I just wonder whether these tools are also used in cave and if not, why not?

Cheers,
J

 

[lamont]

Here is another cause for slack line.

i had the anchor for a jump come off when i was tying in to it (now you've got two slack lines -- your spool and the jump line -- to manage).

 

[vinegarbiscuit]

This makes a lot of sense.

Another question: do you use anything other than tie-offs? It *sounds* like other devices other than ties could be used to secure line snugly and neatly on a cave wall. In rock climbing we have countless devices (nuts, cams, friends, slings) that allow us to tie into rock (mostly) securely. They are generally placed with the intention that they will take the weight of a fall, and the line of force is important and normally predictable. I just wonder whether these tools are also used in cave and if not, why not?

Cheers,
J

I confess that I'm still a cave-diving neophyte, but I've never seen other, more experienced divers deploy tools when running line. Tie-offs are made on a handy rock with a prominent 'knob' (ooh, er!) or the stout branch of a fallen tree in the cavern zone, but nothing's used to secure the line to those stationary objects. Rock-climbing devices are, as you say, designed to take the weight of a fall, but the line in a cave is never meant to bear the weight of a diver. The guideline is our life line, but if we get too close or under it in any way, the chances of entanglement or breakage are great. Neither is good. Your instructor will teach you to follow line when needed by gently (but not too gently!) - encircling it it with your thumb and forefinger in an "OK" position. (I say 'not too gently' because my instructor would delight in sneaking up behind me during a lights out drill and giving my hand a yank. The first time, I was barely making contact with the line, and my thumb and forefinger gave way pretty easily, and I lost contact with the line. That was the last time I made that mistake!). Plus, it would be a royal pain in the neck to unfasten or unclasp such items in an emergency. If the cavern/cave is silted out, for instance, it's much quicker to just follow wraps and ties with your fingers to ascertain their connection, and unloop with your fingers. And sometimes, time is of the essence...

My familiarity with rock-climbing equipment is not great, but from what I've seen, its loops and stick-out bits seem to pose entanglement hazards. (I believe the carabiner is a familar bit of equipment to a rock-climber, but I'm yet to see one in a cave.) Since tie-offs seem to work perfectly well without additional equipment, you probably don't need it! The adage, 'If you don't need a piece of equipment, don't take it" seems especially applicable in overhead environments.

 

[lamont]

Another question: do you use anything other than tie-offs? It *sounds* like other devices other than ties could be used to secure line snugly and neatly on a cave wall. In rock climbing we have countless devices (nuts, cams, friends, slings) that allow us to tie into rock (mostly) securely. They are generally placed with the intention that they will take the weight of a fall, and the line of force is important and normally predictable. I just wonder whether these tools are also used in cave and if not, why not?

Those would damage the cave, so are generally avoided. Usually there's sacrificial cave formations that cave divers have used and if you look as you're laying down line you can use the same formations that other divers have used. In certain circumstances cave divers have stuck a stick into the bottom of the cave to allow divers to tie off on, but this is usually in the cavern zone which is already fairly beat up. Most jumps/gaps are fairly short and there's not a lot of need to do a bunch of intermediate tie offs.

You can use the cave damage as hints to find the jump line or mainline that you're looking for as well. If you go up and over a hilly formation and you don't see tie-off damage on the top from other cavers securing their lines then you're probably looking the wrong way. You always try not to damage the cave, but where you damage the cave you try to damage the cave in the same way everyone else has damaged it -- if you are causing fresh damage you are probably doing something wrong (unless you're exploring...)

Of course if you follow the cave damage in Carwash down to 60 feet where all the Cave 1/Intro divers who don't know where the mainline is have tied off to and damaged the cavern down there, then you'll just be making the same mistake they all did... But further back in the cave you can generally trust the damage more...

 

[InTheDrink]

Those would damage the cave, so are generally avoided. Usually there's sacrificial cave formations that cave divers have used and if you look as you're laying down line you can use the same formations that other divers have used. In certain circumstances cave divers have stuck a stick into the bottom of the cave to allow divers to tie off on, but this is usually in the cavern zone which is already fairly beat up. Most jumps/gaps are fairly short and there's not a lot of need to do a bunch of intermediate tie offs.

You can use the cave damage as hints to find the jump line or mainline that you're looking for as well. If you go up and over a hilly formation and you don't see tie-off damage on the top from other cavers securing their lines then you're probably looking the wrong way. You always try not to damage the cave, but where you damage the cave you try to damage the cave in the same way everyone else has damaged it -- if you are causing fresh damage you are probably doing something wrong (unless you're exploring...)

Of course if you follow the cave damage in Carwash down to 60 feet where all the Cave 1/Intro divers who don't know where the mainline is have tied off to and damaged the cavern down there, then you'll just be making the same mistake they all did... But further back in the cave you can generally trust the damage more...

Climbing is generally the same. The same places are used for protection over and again. In any event, it sounds like I'm looking for a solution for which there isn't a problem perhaps. If the ties do their job then that's great and one feature of rock climbing over the last 25 years has been the damage climbers have done to the rock, mainly through bolting climbs (drilling bolts for protection rather than using natural protection like a cam in a crack for example). I'd sooner this not happen to diving.

Good to get perspective though that the normal characteristics are the same - look for those who went before you and tie off there.

Cheers,
J

 

[BabyDuck]

'reeling out and swimming faster than you are spooling in line'...

she means 'reeling in line as you're going out of the cave and going faster than you can reel up with tension in the line'.

the 'out' in her sentence refers to out of the cave, not playing out line.

 

[InTheDrink]

she means 'reeling in line as you're going out of the cave and going faster than you can reel up with tension in the line'.

the 'out' in her sentence refers to out of the cave, not playing out line.

Thanks! Makes a lot more sense to me now

J

 

[Dive-aholic]

The stuff I found most hard in Cavern was managing a team of four divers. There were problems with communication in particular, misread light signals or ignored light signals. Light discipline is a good thing to have, and it is something I miss when diving with new divers as their light gets shone in my eyes a lot, they wave it around and so on (just like me when I was newer!)

Of course you had difficulty managing a team of four divers. I teach that teams are comprised of either two or three divers. If there are four divers, then there are two teams. A team of four in not very manageable.

 

[Sas]

Of course you had difficulty managing a team of four divers. I teach that teams are comprised of either two or three divers. If there are four divers, then there are two teams. A team of four in not very manageable.

Yes, at Cave level we had teams of two, which was much better.