Line skills

[Dive-aholic]

One aspect about both wreck penetration and cave diving that concerns me is my sense of direction. It's naturally piss poor (I'm dynamite with numbers though ).

How big a deal do you think this might be and any thoughts on steps to mitigate this unfortunate disposition? Or is it just a question of focussing on it more and seeing whether I improve? And what would you consider 'it' - compass work, landmark recognition, counting fin kicks, checking behind as well as in front? Any other things that are useful to keep one's sense of orientation and to feel and read the cave?

Cheers,
J

We don't typically wear a compass in a cave. I use one when surveying, otherwise, it stays in the van. Landmark recognition is very important. That comes with time. There are a few caves I can get out of without referencing the line because I know them that well. No need to count fin kicks. Easier to count knots if you really have to know distance. Checking behind is very important as you penetrate the cave. Referencing the cave in that way helps you learn the cave.

The thing about cave diving training is that it's now done in a progression of courses. You start with learning to cavern dive and possibly even cave dive to a limited penetration and on the main line only. Learn the mainline passage before you start jumping off into side passages. Progressive penetration is a concept that started in wreck diving, but it is very useful in cave diving. While our progression is much farther than wreck penetration progression, it's still a good way to learn the cave. Dive the first 1000' several times before you head to 1500'. Dive the main line before you see the side passages. Take it one step at a time.

 

[Indian Valley Scuba]

Not to be short, but sure sounds like this poster should stop worrying so hard and just get into a class.

 

[Fish-R-Man]

You say you had a hard cavern class, cool, so what should the OP expect then, from a hard cavern class? Posting about this would be helpful to let him know what to expect basically... and I too am interested in what constitutes a hard cavern class. Like, how did you find it in comparison to Cave? What things did you struggle with? What tips do you have? And so on...

The beginning of the class that I took was not so "hard" as it was frustrating for me. I usually like to do things right the first time and then move on. I thought I would list of few of the things that caused me top have issues the first day or so.

1) I came down with gear that I assumed I would be using for the class. Its my normal set up for single tank OW with an extra reg set up, lights etc. The first day before we even started with the book work. We disassembled all of my gear and spread it out. We reassembled some of my gear with some of the instructors to get a set up with doubles that would work best with what we had. Now I had a BP/W with two regs, long hose, single SPG, etc. Most of which was different from what I normally use. I would try and use the gear that you be using in the class and get some time in it.

2) Placement of gear... The D rings on the harness were in slightly different locations than on the set up I normally use. Just having the shoulder rings a little higher takes that extra thought and time to find the ring or clip. My light canister moved from a tank mount to my waist belt. Not a big deal, but once again you have to think and find it in its new location. Spare lights went from mid left strap to high on both shoulder d-rings, about the same thing just had to think about where thier clips were.

3) Make sure that you understand what is expected of you before you start the dive. A number of times there was a communication problem that took time to sort out before we could continue. This got way easier as I got to know my instructor better through the course. Something simple like when I was asked for my air pressure. I used a different method than he wanted, so we would stop until I gave it correctly. Once again, just another little thing that I had to think about before it became second nature.

4) When doing drills, like laying out line and doing tie offs, I should have been more confident in what I was doing. I spent time at each tie off for his nod of approval before doing the tie. It would have been better to judge for myself and then have him correct me if I was in error.

5) As far as the actual drills went, I actually had no problems with them. No viz, no mask, air share etc, lost line, lost buddy, valve drills, low overhead, etc were one of the main reasons I took this course. ( other than the fact we were in some really cool caves) I wanted to add a little more complexity in my diving.

If you notice from the first few items I listed, that all of the small things that normally won't be an issue in OW seem to take up too much time and thought process during the first couple days of the class. If I would have had an issue, I would hate to have to use the time for something that should be second nature. It would have made the start of the class much more productive if I would have worked out these things before I started the class.

One last tip. I don't know if its an issue for most veteran cave divers, but by the end of the week, both of my thumb tips were raw from working the bolt snaps. When I got home a took a small file and removed all of the sharp edges from the bolt and slot edges. It seemed to be worse with the high end SS snaps......

 

[Sas]

The beginning of the class that I took was not so "hard" as it was frustrating for me. I usually like to do things right the first time and then move on. I thought I would list of few of the things that caused me top have issues the first day or so.

Thanks that was interesting! On the last bit, haha it is funny you should say that as I had never really considered other people had this issue too... I have small calluses on the sides of my thumbs these days from using bolt snaps so often :\ (in particular my right thumb as that is what I use to clip my camera off with) I should try your trick and file them down.

The stuff I found most hard in Cavern was managing a team of four divers. There were problems with communication in particular, misread light signals or ignored light signals. Light discipline is a good thing to have, and it is something I miss when diving with new divers as their light gets shone in my eyes a lot, they wave it around and so on (just like me when I was newer!)

The line work was probably the next hardest but pretty easy in comparison to what was expected in Cave where a lot more emphasis was put on doing this well. I had been taught this previously to Cavern and practised though not with twins. We got a day in the pool before the course with all our gear (we had a gear critique then too) and I figured it out then good enough for Cavern class.

The unexpected failures were pretty easy for the most part, and mostly centered around valve failures (instructor used an air gun for this), loss of mask, entanglement, OOAs, panicked diver, things like that (all stuff I have actually had to deal with in reality). I mean, it was annoying sharing air with no mask, not hard but annoying, but the water was 12C and I don't like the cold on my eyeballs. At Cave level I hard a hard time doing buddy breathing with no mask whilst we reeled in (yea not a realistic scenario but it is a course standard to test task loading), I just was really uncomfortable as I was puffed out, the water was cold and I ended up giving my buddy the reel so I could control the reg donation, otherwise I think I wouldn't have made it back out without going back to my own reg. That was probably the most stressful failure I was given (and the others on the course seemed to agree). I found all of the blackout stuff really fun, and not stressful at all.

I spent a lot of time talking to people who had done the course though as well as another instructor of mine to find out what to expect as far as skills required and that helped *enormously*. I am a worrier too so I can sympathise with the OP...

 

[InTheDrink]

I spent a lot of time talking to people who had done the course though as well as another instructor of mine to find out what to expect as far as skills required and that helped *enormously*. I am a worrier too so I can sympathise with the OP...

Who's worrying?

It'll be a month at the very very least before I embark on any Cavern training. I haven't picked a country yet never mind an instructor (although the latter may dictate the former). So I've plenty of time to kill asking idle questions that occur to me about diving in caves or caverns and what things to consider getting familiar with before any training.

I've probably exhausted any reasonable questions I might have had (ok, that was probably back somewhere near page 3 ) but I'm more than happy for others to chime in with their thoughts and experiences - it's both interesting and useful.

Those bored with the thread - well, no-one's forcin' ya to read
J

 

[Sas]

Who's worrying?

You know what I mean! Wanting to know lots of details about stuff. Most people see it as worrying but I think it is just being prepared

 

[b1gcountry]

Not to be short, but sure sounds like this poster should stop worrying so hard and just get into a class.

+1. You really don't want to learn this stuff over the internets. I understand you're excited, but take the class and then come back with questions.

Tom

 

[TSandM]

I don't see it as worrying . . . I see it as excitement and curiosity.

One of the things you will learn from cave training is that, in many situations, there IS no formulaic answer. Sometimes you make judgment calls; sometimes there are additional circumstances that would make the "classic" answer precisely wrong. Cave divers have to be thinking divers.

But to answer your question about dubious tie-offs, keeping the line nicely taut and doing the best job of securing the tie is the beginning, but if you have any doubts about a tie, find another one nearby. Pulling off a tie will create slack line, and what you want to do is keep that to a minimum.

As far as slack line management goes, what Sas is describing is the situation where you are reeling out and swimming faster than you are spooling up line. This can easily happen in high flow cave. It will also happen if the line makes a big directional change, and your helpful buddy removes the tie (something of which I've been guilty!) In that case, the cause of the slack line is obvious, and your buddy manages the slack until you can catch up with the reel. Finding slack line in other circumstances, as laurin says, is more sinister, because it may mean broken line, and the last thing you want to do, until you understand why the slack is there, is to start winding it up. You may find yourself looking at a cut or broken end, with a hundred feet or more of unlined cave to negotiate to find the remainder.

 

[boulderjohn]

Here is another cause for slack line.

We were coming out of the Devil's Eye a while ago. This is a straight down entry with a sharp turn to level at the bottom of the opening. Daylight is clearly visible from the bottom of the initial entry. We tied off at the bottom to start the entry to avoid what I am about to describe. When we returned and reached the exit, we saw that someone else had tied off at the top of the entry and had run the line pretty much straight down the narrow shaft. I undid the last tie, so I was the last to leave. Trying to squeeze by the other team's line, the teammate immediately in front of me hooked it on some of his gear. By the time we were able to get him free of it, the line was pretty darn slack.

So, if you want to avoid slack line, don't run it down the middle of narrow passages where people following you are going to get caught on it.

 

[InTheDrink]

+1. You really don't want to learn this stuff over the internets. I understand you're excited, but take the class and then come back with questions.

Tom

I do appreciate your concern but I don't necessarily differentiate between trusted people I speak to in person and trusted people I speak to on the internet. And in any activity I would expect a significant part of my learning to come from speaking to peers, particularly those with experience. The other places I would expect learning to occur would be an instructor and actual experience itself. But discount this kind of learning if you want to - I definitely don't.

Like I said, I take on board your input, appreciate your point, I just respectfully don't agree with it

Cheers,
J