Lionfish Awareness and Elimination

[Hank49]

Someone sited the near elimination of hogfish in FL as evidence that we could also eliminate lionfish. The big difference here is lionfish don't sell for $9 per lb filleted.
A couple years ago when they were first seen in Belize I was all for spearing any that I saw. But the problem is there is a LOT of area here that isn't dived at all. Area wise, I would guess less then 15% of the reef area suitable for lionfish habitation is EVER dived. This means that the majority of them here live totally unmolested.
As far as them wiping out our local species, I'm not sure I go along with that. They may have a big impact at first but fish learn. They learn what a predator is very fast. And if you've ever dived the Philippines and seen the numbers there on every dive, it's pretty obvious the local fish there have learned how to hide from them.
I know of a guy who spearfishes a lot in Puerto Rico and I asked him what he impact he thinks they've had there. His response, "I don't know. Some days you see lots of fish, others not so much".
We'll find out. As Doc Harry said, (at least here in Belize) it's like trying to eliminate dandelions from your lawn....or maybe from your back 40 pasture.
As far as teaching a course on it? )...whatever...go for it and have fun.

 

[Guba]

Nice job, Annieols! Congratulations and best wishes on your course and program. As a professional educator, I think it's important that information about the lionfish situation be made readily available in a variety of venues. I feel so strongly about it, in fact, that I've been including the lionfish invasion in a workshop for teachers that I've been doing for about a year. (The workshop is called "Ocean Awareness: Critical Issues Concerning Marine Environments", and I offer it through regional education service centers in my area.) I'm no expert on either lionfish or marine biology, but I do take the time as a teacher and diver to become familiar with critical issues. Since my home is well over 8 hours from the nearest coast, there are few in the region with any expertise at all concerning ocean concerns. In my own little way I'm trying to change that, so I fully appreciate your efforts to increase awareness in this matter. Of course, I also include discussions of the lionfish as an invasive species in my Environmental Systems classes and others.

Keep up the good work!

 

[danvolker]

Someone sited the near elimination of hogfish in FL as evidence that we could also eliminate lionfish. The big difference here is lionfish don't sell for $9 per lb filleted.

I have spoken to several very high end restaurants in Palm Beach that are excited about being able to get lionfish to serve--what is missing is local divers getting the lion fish supply started. This includes Paridiso in Lake Worth ( best Italion restaurant in Florida--hogsnapper Livornese style is around $35 on their menu) and also Thaiko ( sushi and Thai restaurant across from the Ritz Carlton in Manalapan). It would be easy to get many more good restaurants. Again, what is not easy is getting the lionfish to the restaurants.

A couple years ago when they were first seen in Belize I was all for spearing any that I saw. But the problem is there is a LOT of area here that isn't dived at all. Area wise, I would guess less then 15% of the reef area suitable for lionfish habitation is EVER dived. This means that the majority of them here live totally unmolested.

Here in Plam Beach, all the reefs get dived, until you get to the deep reefs---the 220 to 260 foot ledge will only have a small number of tech divers ever, so this could be a re-supply area for lionfish.
However, with big money value to commercial fisherman, sport divers should be able to bring their catch to a commercial boat, sell it, and the commercial guys could run the fish to the restaurants...With this going on, the lionfish would be drastically depleted--compared to what will happen if the "mother nature will fix this" mentality is allowed to continue. This could also be called the "stick your head in the sand" mentality of doing nothing and pretending this is best.

As far as them wiping out our local species, I'm not sure I go along with that. They may have a big impact at first but fish learn. They learn what a predator is very fast. And if you've ever dived the Philippines and seen the numbers there on every dive, it's pretty obvious the local fish there have learned how to hide from them.

Hogsnapper never learned...not to this day. Nassua grouper never learned. Grey Groupers never learned. Any fish targeted in South Florida by commercial spearfishing , was essentially wiped out. The lionfish will be much easier to wipe out on 100 foot or less reefs than the groupers or hogs, or other desired fish--they are easy targets, and are like this by evolution.
The behavior of the lionfish, to sit motionless, makes them an easy target. If they change their motionless behavior, they may starve, as that would be changing their eating/hunting behavior.

Even if the lionfish survive on deep reefs, the dynamics will be very different---the fish to prey on less available when juvenile, and if they have anything in common with the groupers or hogfish, these species were essentially left alone by spearfisherman on the deep reefs, and the proliferation never happened. If it did, commercial guys would go out and start buying doubles and trimix.

It is nonsense to suggest human predation would not have a major impact on lionfish.
As our reefs could be in jeopardy within a few years, I take YOUR comment as a personal threat. If people listened to you, it would damage our ability to protect the reefs. This is personal, I will not play nice in this discussion...this is the nicest response that will come out of me on this topic.


DanV

 

[Chugwhump]

I did a 95 minute dive yesterday from the shoreline of a place in SoFla where I have killed a Lionfish every time I have dove since May of last year.
May depth 25'
I was unable to find one this time.
(No bugs either)
Was I unlucky or am I/We making an impact?
I do not know, but it was the first time since August that I have not seen one on a dive.
It was a good day.

Chug
The fight continues.

 

[Bratface]

We have had a program to control lionfish in the Virgin Islands for over a year now and are making progress. We now have private funding. You can read about the Core Foundation at www.nolionfish.com
Good luck with your program.

 

[Hank49]

II take YOUR comment as a personal threat. If people listened to you, it would damage our ability to protect the reefs. This is personal, I will not play nice in this discussion...this is the nicest response that will come out of me on this topic.[/I]


DanV

You didn't have to resort to this type of comment. I was stating the problem specific to Belize.
http://www.icriforum.org/sites/default/files/Belize.pdf
You have a very different situation in FL. We can't spearfish on scuba here. The only commercial spearing is done inside the reef. Most of the lionfish I see are out over the reef in water deeper than 60 feet.
Almost all experts agree that amy attempt at eradication is impractical and will fail. They're here to stay.
The only hope is to make it economically cost effective to hunt and collect them as you're stating may be happening in FL. This may...MAY control the numbers to where their impact on other fish species is reduced.
But even then only the larger specimens will be taken. The majority of the ones I see here are barely 2-3 ounces in size. Who will eat them? Will fishermen take the time to kill them? Maybe for a while but if they don't make money at it, they'll stop, especially after they get stung once or twice.
It all comes down to money. If it becomes profitable fishermen will take them. If not....
They've been around now for almost 20 years. People are still getting big fish in the areas where they are. Maybe there is hope.

Regarding personal threat....does this mean if I come up to Palm Beach that you're going to kick my ass?

 

[BoltSnap]

... I take YOUR comment as a personal threat. If people listened to you, it would damage our ability to protect the reefs. This is personal, I will not play nice in this discussion...this is the nicest response that will come out of me on this topic.[/I]


DanV

Isn't this taking it way too far and too personal when it need not be?? Take it easy please. I don't see any "personal" or non-personal threats here. Hank is only expressing his opinion that is shared by some others out in the field. He may or may not be right, but he certainly hasn't threatened anyone. Let's look at all sides and make up our opinions on our own. We don't want one person to do the thinking for us.

 

[redacted]

STINAPA is taking steps steps forward, albeit slowly, to help in LF elimination without allowing a free for all on the reefs. There have already been reports of volunteer eliminators abusing thier ELF spears (giving them to other divers, and spearing non-lionfish, for example)... Hopefully this stops, cause the job is just too big for the small group who are allowed to spear at this moment

I am still unclear of exactly what this course does (other than put another dollar in). Last summer in Bonaire I observed quite a few lionfish markers with algae growing on them and LF still on the structure. It made me believe that if Bonaire is serious about controlling LF, they will find a way to allow visiting divers to remove LF. So, does this course allow visiting divers to remove LF when encountered during the course of every dive? If so, how? Could you provide a synopsis of the course?

If the occasional collateral damage (perhaps the loss of a Creole Fish) is a major concern for this program, then either the STINAPA is just not that worried about the LF problem or they don't believe this program can really be effective. Of course, it needs to be policed; but not in a manner that severely reduces the effectiveness of the LF control effort.

 

[danvolker]

You didn't have to resort to this type of comment. I was stating the problem specific to Belize.
http://www.icriforum.org/sites/default/files/Belize.pdf
You have a very different situation in FL. We can't spearfish on scuba here. The only commercial spearing is done inside the reef. Most of the lionfish I see are out over the reef in water deeper than 60 feet.
Almost all experts agree that amy attempt at eradication is impractical and will fail. They're here to stay.
The only hope is to make it economically cost effective to hunt and collect them as you're stating may be happening in FL. This may...MAY control the numbers to where their impact on other fish species is reduced.
But even then only the larger specimens will be taken. The majority of the ones I see here are barely 2-3 ounces in size. Who will eat them? Will fishermen take the time to kill them? Maybe for a while but if they don't make money at it, they'll stop, especially after they get stung once or twice.
It all comes down to money. If it becomes profitable fishermen will take them. If not....
They've been around now for almost 20 years. People are still getting big fish in the areas where they are. Maybe there is hope.

Regarding personal threat....does this mean if I come up to Palm Beach that you're going to kick my ass?

Hank, these posts about how the Lionfish problem "should be handled" are read by people all over....this includes a very large population of Florida divers. Florida has plenty of people who are anti-spearfishing, and who believe that no one should go out and shoot Lionfish. If a successful movement is to occur, I think the Florida area ( and your area in Belize) needs to capitalize on the fact that humans "can be" the most efficient predators on the planet, given the motivation. My talking to high priced restaurants and getting them excited about a pricey new menu item, is the way to get this motivation going....your discussion of dandelions in the lawn, and the pointlessness of human response, is horrifically counter-productive....It does not matter to a casual reader that you were discussing Belize--they will assume your discussion is valid everywhere, if they were leaning toward letting nature take it's course.

Belize needs to create special licenses to allow scuba spearfishing for Lionfish....You and the dive industry there need to take this as part of your mission, along with getting the restaurants and hotels ( and the Department of tourism) involved. Commerical spearfishing that targets a species, can wipe out practically any reef species, given enough money to get enough commerical spearfisherman involved.

 

[Scott L]

Few issues have united S. Florida divers like the threat of LF. Folks who have never had a desire to spear fish in the past have been buying or building spearing devices by the hundreds in order to shoot and kill with extreme prejudice...