Mares M1 RGBM

[GoBlue!]

100days-a-year once bubbled...
Or you could just ask BRW staight-up.He answers anything he's asked and gives very straightforward answers in simple terms.

I've just sent him a PM to see if he'll swing by this thread to educate us all when he gets a chance.

Jim

 

[Charlie99]

BRW already answered much of this in a 2 Sep 2003 post: http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=378848&highlight=Mares#post378848

"7) -- full up RGBM is in EXPLORER deco meter, and in testing
phases for release by Mares, Dacor, and Zeagle also;

8) -- full up RGBM software offered by GAP and ABYSS (plus
coming out at RGBMdiving.com);

9)-- modified RGBM is in Suunto, Mares, Dacor, Plexus, and
unnamed (here) deco meters;"


It looks to me like the first RGBM computer by Mares (M1 RGBM ??) will be a "modified RGBM" computer, like the present Suunto line.

Supposedly, the full-up RGBM and "modified RGBM" / Suunto RGBM / Mares RGBM will give the same results for recreational profiles, and signficant differences only appear with relatively long deco. That's why the first full-up RGBM computer, Hydrospace's Explorer is a multiple gas trimix computer ---- only in deep, long deco, mixed gas profiles does it appear to be worth the extra trouble of doing the full RGBM model rather than just modifying neo-haldanian limits as in the Suuntos.

 

[GoBlue!]

From another thread, BRW wrote:

...Deep stops are in RGBM Mares and Dacor rec units released in June. Trimix computer with same is in the works. All are RGBM with said same bubble dynamics as described above. Deep stops come from folding over full RGBM.

Suunto will be extending a deep stops deco version
to Vytec, Vyper, Cobra, Mosquito (whole line). Present
Suunto line is rec RGBM as described.

HydroSpace Explorer IS "real" trimix, deco computer
with full scale RGBM -- ONLY one now. But Zeagle, Mares,
Dacor, Plexus, Steam Machines following suit. Suunto
contemplating. These are RGBM computers targeted at
tec diving, and handle rec diving too. Deep stops fall out of the
model directly -- "real"

Does this mean that Mares M1 will build in deep stops (i.e., RGBM-like) whereas Suunto will not? I guess I'm not following the semantics between "folded RGBM," "rec RGBM," "pure RGBM," etc. Maybe it's time to by Weinke's book.

Jim

 

[BRW]

Yo,

Got an email for some clarification on questions on this
thread. This info has been posted in a bunch of places before, but hope this helps here.

Recreational RGBM is a subset of full RGBM for no-deco
to light deco diving. Full RGBM is used to correct for short
SIs, reverse profiles, multiday, and altitude diving with bubble
dynamics rolled over Haldane formats used in most rec meters.
These dynamics fix cracks in Haldane frameworks for rec diving.
This is done on a computer by matching a particular M-value
(Haldane) algorithm against full RGBM using bubble dynamics
and making the above mentioned bubble corrections.

In new versions of rec RGBM the past year or so, deep stops
were introduced in manner consistent with full RGBM as you
approach NDLs, or do "blush" deco. You see this in Mares,
Dacor, and HydroSpace computers now. Expect similar meters
from Suunto shortly. And others too. Deep stops (1/2) have also
been introduced into the NAUI rec tables following the Deep
Stops And Modern Deco Strategies Wkshp last Feb in Tampa.

Only for nonstop single dive do rec RGBM and Haldane overlap
(that means a single no deco dive). After that, nada,
especially as SIs decrease, reverse profiles grow larger in
differences from previous dives, altitude increases, and
multiday and repet frequency increases.

Mares, Dacor, Suunto, Zeagle, Plexus, Steam Machines,
Hydrospace, plus others coming online have rec RGBM.
Hydrospace, Stream Machines and Zeagle also have full RGBM.
Mares and Dacor are working on full RGBM. So are others

NAUI has released rec and tec (full) RGBM tables. So has
RGBMdiving.com

Rec and tec RGBM meters and tables are congruent.

RGBM is backed by testing and validation over the past
8 yrs or so in the tec and rec communities. It's published
in reviewed journals, and employs modern deco technology
of correlating algorithm with stats in risk analysis. There
exists an RGBM Data Bank for this.

Books Technical Diving In Depth (TDID), RGBM In Depth,
and Basic Decompression Theory And Applications (2nd Ed)
have all of this mapped out. So does info on RGBMdiving.com.

Hope this touches bases.

Regards, and Merry Xmas

Bruce Wienke
Program Manager Computational Physics
C & C Dive Team Ldr
NAUI BOD Vice Chairman Technical Diving

 

[paulwlee]

Thank you for the clarification.

So is it safe to say that the difference between algorithms of the Mares M1 RGBM and current Suunto computers is mostly the inclusion of deep stops?

I think that's what people are mostly curious about.

 

[Genesis]

.... the Mares M1 RGBM will only call for a deep stop if you are within 3 minutes of the NDL.

 

[leadweight]

A man wearing a brown outfit (including the shorts) just brought me a box with a brand new M1 RGBM dive computer in it. I will be diving with it next week at Ambergris Caye. It should be a pretty good test as the dives there tend to have minimum depth of 45 feet. On the second dive of the day most of the newer computers are pretty much out of no-stop dive time. For those of you that are interested, this unit was recently reviewed favorably over at Divernet.

The manual says...

Algorithm:
RGBM Mares-Wienke, the result of collaboration between Dr. Bruce R. Wienke and the MARES research and development team.

10 tissue compartments.

Reduction of permissible gradient (M factors) in case of repetitive dives, deeper-than-previous-dives or multi-day diving.

Deep stop.

10 m/min ascent rate.

When I get back I will let the board know what happened. My only concern is that the thing could turn out to be more conservative than a Suunto.

 

[bwerb]

What is your profile plan for the dive? With your current computer, what do you do on your second dive (ie...do you dive the computer or do you use another set of tables). Just curious so I can have a better idea of the data when you post your dive report. Let us know.

 

[leadweight]

What is your profile plan for the dive? With your current computer, what do you do on your second dive (ie...do you dive the computer or do you use another set of tables). Just curious so I can have a better idea of the data when you post your dive report. Let us know.

First dive is usually 80 to 90 foot max, gradually working back up to about 50 feet, and not much change after that. About a 1:15 surface interval with a second dive having a 60 or 65 foot max. Both on air. Sometimes I splurge on Nitrox towards the end of the week. I go with Protech Belize. They blend all the Nitrox for AC, so it is the only place where you do not have to order it in advance.

Previously, my Aladin Pro Nitrox would get pretty low on no-stop time on dive 2. their dive guides use Aladin Sport computers, so we were running on about the same profile. The Mermaid has an old Genesis hockey puck which is mucho liberal. It gives tons of no-stop time 10 feet deeper than the Aladin or any of the European computers.

 

[roakey]

On the second dive of the day most of the newer computers are pretty much out of no-stop dive time. ... My only concern is that the thing could turn out to be more conservative than a Suunto.

Depending on your profiles, you could find that the you're out of no-stop time even faster with RGBM, and it'll be stopping you deeper too.

However, if for a moment we assume that you're doing some mild deco dives, your stops, though starting deeper, should add up to less hang time than some other computers...

Roak