jplacson
Guest
Maybe they should rename it "Warm Ice"? :lol:
Mares or Apeks?
- Thread starter karlos
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Greg Barlow
Contributor
Actually, Mares has always listed their metal second stages as suitable for cold water diving due to the thermal conductivity. As far as service kits go, the prices must be higher outside of my region. The first stage rebuild kits usually run around $18 (retail) with the second stage running about the same. Mares doesn't push replacing the HP poppet/seat (model dependent on which) unless there is obvious wear or leakage. I find that I can usually replace mine every other rebuild without any problems at all. I have my short hosed reg running from a MR12 that has the original poppet (4 years and running). Granted, it doesn't get a lot of usage, but still shows no obvious wear even under 6X magnification.
A question on Apeks...Do "do it yourselfers" actually replace the diaphragms on every rebuild as the factory suggests? Very few of the manufacturers call for this part to be replaced unless there is some obvious wear patterns. I realize that the rebuild kits have both diaphragms, but am curious as to how often these actually have problems.
The last time that one of my dive buddies had his Poseidon's rebuilt, the parts kits were nearly $70 for the two stages. If anyone is paying these sorts of prices for Mares kits, then they should be purchasing them from DiveInn of Spain. They have great prices if you don't have access to dealer pricing. My price on each stage kit runs around $10 with my discount rates. Incidently, DiveInn sold Apeks kits at one time, but caught all sorts of flak over it. They no longer are "allowed" to sell any parts other than mouthpieces and hoses.
Greg
A question on Apeks...Do "do it yourselfers" actually replace the diaphragms on every rebuild as the factory suggests? Very few of the manufacturers call for this part to be replaced unless there is some obvious wear patterns. I realize that the rebuild kits have both diaphragms, but am curious as to how often these actually have problems.
The last time that one of my dive buddies had his Poseidon's rebuilt, the parts kits were nearly $70 for the two stages. If anyone is paying these sorts of prices for Mares kits, then they should be purchasing them from DiveInn of Spain. They have great prices if you don't have access to dealer pricing. My price on each stage kit runs around $10 with my discount rates. Incidently, DiveInn sold Apeks kits at one time, but caught all sorts of flak over it. They no longer are "allowed" to sell any parts other than mouthpieces and hoses.
Greg
Well, lets compare apples to apples. Poseidon and Apeks first stage kits include a diaphragm and HP seat. Mares does not. So, add the price of a HP seat ($20) and diaphragm ($12) to the first stage kit retail price, and you get $50. Poseidon's first stage kit retails for less than $30. Big difference there.
Now, what Mares says you dont have to change out every annual service, I find to be not the case. The majority of Mares regs that I overhaul NEED a new HP seat, and diaphragm. Due to the nature of a diaphragm reg, even after one year, a diaphragm has taken a set, and has significant grooves in it. This is normal, yes, but why is Mares one of the only companies that dont include a diaphragm in their service kit? And, why is the price almost twice that of an APeks service kit (when comparing apples to apples)???
Now, what Mares says you dont have to change out every annual service, I find to be not the case. The majority of Mares regs that I overhaul NEED a new HP seat, and diaphragm. Due to the nature of a diaphragm reg, even after one year, a diaphragm has taken a set, and has significant grooves in it. This is normal, yes, but why is Mares one of the only companies that dont include a diaphragm in their service kit? And, why is the price almost twice that of an APeks service kit (when comparing apples to apples)???
Greg Barlow
Contributor
LUBOLD8431:
Lubold,
I will grant that when the diaphragm must be replaced then it is an added expense. I've easily rebuilt more than 150 Mares regs over the years, and have replaced very few from that total. I have a hunch that reusing the diaphragm cause little problems due to the rather large sealing/bearing surfaces in the first stage. I can't ever recall one leaking. The few I've replaced had some rather obvious wear, or were starting to get a bit stiffer than normal, probably from oxidation.
As far as my experience goes, the HP poppets typically last at least 100 dives and often around 200 dives. The spherical valves used in some models have usually proven to be more durable, with some showing virtually no discernable wear after 200 dives. Now, there was a batch of HP valves that went through around 5 years ago that were problematic. There were many that would "throw" a tiny bit of material that would lead to a slow leak in the IP. Some of these only lasted around 50 dives, so they WERE a problem. Mares's determination was that the compound was a bit "too tough". I can't remember what the code symbol was, but it might have been a cylinder shape. Anyway, Mares instructed all dive centers to remove them from inventory and to replace with other coded seats.
I will say this in Mares's defense. Their precision of manufacturing is excellent when it comes to the injection molding and metal work. Once again, they might not have the adjustability factors of some other excellent regs, but they are very reliable with an ease of breathing that is quite remarkable when you consider the simplicity of the design. The by-pass tube does work well and follows the simplicity issue to the extreme. Adjusting one to a cracking effort of 1.25" rarely leads to free flows, yet still gives easy inhalations. I also set the IP at 140-142psi unless the reg is used in real cold water. I then usually go with 136-138 just for the lesser adiabatic pressure/volume concerns.
Mares has a huge R&D department in Rapallo. If they were to integrate the VAD design with an adjustable inhalation effort control, and seal the first stages with a dry system then I believe that they would have a real winner.
While the first stage would be a "knock-off" of the Apeks version, it would have its own features. You must remember that the MR22 was around before the Flat Head, and they certainly have a lot of similar design features. Hey, if it works....
Another point, I believe that Apeks might want to investigate/consider going to a replacable HP crown similar to the Mares and Zeagle design. Granted, seldom do crowns have problems, but if they do the problem is often tough to correct with polishing tools.
We started off on a bad note with this whole Mares issue. I am trying to look "subjectively" at the issue. I still believe that Mares regs are excellent within their boudaries in regards to durability and ease of servicing. Apeks are great, and like I've said many times, if my diving needs come to exceed the Mares, then Apeks gets my nod. If I had a guranteed source of parts for a DS4 with an ATX50 second stage, then I would gladly purchase one and go hard at it for a year....
Anyone want to privately drop me a note to "ensure" that I can service one? Hint, hint....BTW, I've got the manuals for all of the models.
Greg
(Mares reg fan, but one who is willing to add some pounds to the British economy)
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