Medical Privacy Concern

[NudeDiver]

In no manner does the required medical statement bear any resemblance to the inquisition, your analogy is either disingenuous or ignorant.

If you don't like the questions, you aren't required to answer them and you won't be punished because you don't. We aren't talking about a little white lie here, "yes" answers are a serious indication of a real and immediate danger to yourself and to those who will be around you. No matter how much sophistry and hyperbole you employ in your argument, lying, especially when it endangers others, is morally bankrupt. That's a lesson you should have learned in kindergarten.

What we are talking about is balancing the rights and privileges of the individuals in a group you would like to join with commensurate obligations and responsibilities. Personal responsibility isn't a license do whatever you want and the rest of the world be damned, sometimes being honorable means you have to make the hard choice and do the unpleasant thing. That's another lesson you should have learned in kindergarten.

Blah, blah, blah.

interesting subject, i find the hassle and expense of getting a doctor to sign off on exactly the same thing that was signed off last time i upgraded my PADI standing somewhat hypocritical. i understand the problem of liability, but think having passed the first time is enough already. no need to mention that some of the other certification routes such as SSI may not be as picky but then PADI being US based are more prone to the law suit culture.

Well, it's possible you may have developed a "yes" condition since your last class.

But this proposition--cede some privacy or don't do business with us--has become so commonplace that standing on principle and maintaining your privacy is nearly impossible if you want to lead a normal life. Sure, you can pass on scuba training, but how about credit cards, utilities, internet access, phone service, etc.? The vast majority of people seem happily willing to cede their privacy, leaving the rest of us in a bind. So it is certainly irksome when people who don't require our personal information demand it, as is the case, in my opinion, with scuba instructors and students medically cleared for diving.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

I think that there's an overemphasis on the form itself which clouds the separate issue of whether you are in fact fit to dive. Like a prior poster, I'd prefer a form that listed medical conditions that potentially contra-indicated diving. You'd initial each to show that you've read it, and sign a general release at the bottom saying that you have none of the above or provide a doctors letter that stated that while you had a condition, it was not, in his opinion, a problem.As it is, the form does a poor job, and does create serious privacy issues.... So coming full circle, if you are in fact fit to dive, the form is nothing more than a legal release protecting the operators and the details are imaterial. If you're in fact not fit, you shouldn't be diving, form or no form.

Ding, ding, ding! We have another winner.

 

[JKPAO]

Which still brings me to believe a P and O2 chamber ride would weed out any knuckle heads that would like to Lie, falsify, write untruths or otherwise just being stupid. This would also test a person with a "YES" answer in a fairly benign atmosphere. Twitchy and your out! Blowing blood bubbles DITTO ,have trouble holding a BIB and an OK sign, guess what?
See you topside! John

 

[Standingbear56]

Let's look at this from another point of view. Say I have a student who reads this thread and decides to lie on his/her medical form because of some of the opinions posted here. During his/her open water training, he/she suffers a medical trauma that leads to him/her dying. Of course everyone who ever knew him/her now sues not only me, the instructor, but also our dive center, his/her buddy, the training agency and everyone and everything else they can think of. During the trial, it comes out that he/she decided to lie on the medical form due to the statements of certain people on this thread. While most of the people involved should be cleared due to the fact that the student chose to lie, I wonder what the outcome will be for the people who suggested that the student lie in the first place? It would be most interesting to see them defend themselves on the stand, especially when they may now stand to loose everything.
The second thing is this. As a medical professional, I can truly say that everything on the medical form has a valid reason for being there. Many can cause barotrauma and death. The instructor does need to be aware of these because his/her responsibility includes the whole class, not just one person. If a student has a known seizure disorder and lies on the form, then has a seizure underwater, this endangers the student's buddy, students near him/her as well as the instructor. Why should anyone, be it the student. his/her buddy, other students or the Instructor be put at risk in this way? There is absolutely no justification for this to happen. It is indefensible and extremely selfish. Want to talk about choices - here's a good one. If you do not want to be honest on the medical form for whatever reason, then you choose not to take a course. It's that simple. Anything else is indefensible BS.

 

[don Francisco]

Let's look at this from another point of view. Say I have a student who reads this thread and decides to lie on his/her medical form because of some of the opinions posted here. .....

....The instructor does need to be aware of these because his/her responsibility includes the whole class, not just one person.

I can't speak for any other posters, but let me be absolutely clear. I'm not advocating simply lying to get around the form. What I'm saying is that if one does his due diligence, and reviews his physical condition with his regular physician, who then renders a knowlegeable medical opinion that there in no contra-indication to diving, than whether he lies on the form or not is immaterial, since nothing will have changed either way.

As for the instructors need to know, that too depends on materiality, and in any case you can't have this both ways. On the one hand, instructors say they quickly scan and file the form and MD letter without reviewing the details, aparantly saying they don't actually need to know specifics.

On the other hand, most instructors, unless confronted with a glaring problem, aren't qualified to render any medical opinion, which is why divers are told to get an MD letter. If dive professionals took it upon themselves to render a medical judgement, they'd be buying into an obligation and possible legal liability.

So, we're back to square one, If you are fit to dive the medical form is simply a legal release. If you are not fit to dive, stay out of the water. If anything on the form gives you pause, get a qualified professional opinion before signing up for a dive.

 

[NudeDiver]

During the trial, it comes out that he/she decided to lie on the medical form due to the statements of certain people on this thread. While most of the people involved should be cleared due to the fact that the student chose to lie, I wonder what the outcome will be for the people who suggested that the student lie in the first place? It would be most interesting to see them defend themselves on the stand, especially when they may now stand to loose everything.

Nice try. While it is possible that anything can happen in the universe, even American juries, known to have far less than half a wit amongst all 12 members combined, are unlikely to conclude as a matter of law that because you chose to implement a comment from some random stranger on some random website, that the random stranger is somehow the direct and proximate cause of your death - or whatever else it is that happened to you thousands of miles away. That this one random comment, from no authority figure whatsoever, from someone who has absolutely no duty of care to you or responsibility for you by even the broadest stretch of the imagination, somehow, through the forces of magic, God, Satan or otherwise, is enough to put responsibility on this stranger - over and above eeeeeeeeverything else that might happen in such an incident, and outweighs the decision of a responsible adult, having been warned of the dangers of SCUBA diving, having been given the invasive "medical release" to read over and sign, having sat through a class and undoubtedly and repeatedly been warned about the dangers of SCUBA diving - and - oh by the way, having had the initiative to get on the internet and do some research about the issue and come to some personal conclusions about what to do. Yeah. Good luck with that.

 

[tridacna]

who then renders a knowlegeable medical opinion that there in no contra-indication to diving

This is part of the problem. Most physicians do know not what an absolute contra-indication to diving is. They think that they're completing a GYM approval. I've seen it myself. I've had a doctor sign off on an epileptic patient before.

If you substitute "Physicians with an understanding of SCUBA contra-indications", I still would not be OK. As an instructor, I would want to know that a student has asthma or is diabetic. Kinda makes it easier to administer an appropriate and faster response in the event of an emergency, don't you think?

 

[adurso]

Would not a requirement of a hyperbaric specialist or a diving physician examination greatly reduce the number of those coming into the sport? Meaning that the certifying agencies in the US which are accused of solely pursuing filthy lucre would be less inclined to support such a requirement as the current form, vanilla as it may be, clearly meets the purpose of limiting liability for said agencies.

 

[don Francisco]

This is part of the problem. Most physicians do know not what an absolute contra-indication to diving is. They think that they're completing a GYM approval. I've seen it myself. I've had a doctor sign off on an epileptic patient before.

If you substitute "Physicians with an understanding of SCUBA contra-indications", I still would not be OK. As an instructor, I would want to know that a student has asthma or is diabetic. Kinda makes it easier to administer an appropriate and faster response in the event of an emergency, don't you think?

I used the word "Knowledgeable" advisedly, to mean knowledgeable about both his patient's medical history, and the diving related issues involved. But, you're absolutely right that large numbers of doctors will will sign a "fit to dive letter", without knowing the possible issues. (I touched on this earlier).

But, in any case as a non-medical professional, without knowledge of the history, you're certainly not in a position judge the quality of the medical opinion, and if you inject yourself too deeply into the equation you risk compromising the "I'm not his doctor. I accepted his doctor's letter in good faith" defense.

You're right that in certain situations, your knowledge of details might make a difference, and where that's so, a smart diver would factor that in. But that isn't true of every condition, and if "in the interests of privacy" you didn't review the form carefully, or share the details with your staff, that argument becomes moot.

 

[NudeDiver]

Would not a requirement of a hyperbaric specialist or a diving physician examination greatly reduce the number of those coming into the sport? Meaning that the certifying agencies in the US which are accused of solely pursuing filthy lucre would be less inclined to support such a requirement as the current form, vanilla as it may be, clearly meets the purpose of limiting liability for said agencies.

Ding, ding, ding! We have another winner.

 

[matt_w]

People read a lot more into these form than there really is. These forms exist for one reason and one reason alone. The transfer of liability. If you have one of the listed conditions and lie, and die because of it, the facility, instructor and training organization can reasonably claim it is your responsibility. If you have one of these conditions, get a doctors clearance and die because of the condition, the facility, instructor and training organization can reasonably claim your doctor is to blame.

The form has nothing at all to do with informing the facility of conditions so they can better assist you in an emergency, using the information in that way would create additional liability, not reduce it.

The way the standard medical form exists right now, no one can claim they did not know that condition xyz might be an issue while diving (presuming the condition is listed on the form). By requiring the student to write yes or no next to each item, it provides some positive affirmation that the student read the line on the form.

If you are that concerned about your privacy, you can either not dive or move to a planet where people won't blame your instructor if you die from a heart attack while scuba diving. The training organizations did not create our litigous society, nor do they enjoy all the paperwork any more than anyone else. I doubt there is a dive training professional anywhere on earth that enjoys the medical release portion of signing up students.

Matt