Missing Diver - Grand Cayman Sept 21, 2009

[Jim Lapenta]

I was diving off 7 mile beach on the day in question while on cruise. Not sure if I should list the dive operation here, but I will add that the briefings were good, but the first dive included a 90' descent, follow the DM in a large circle (on the edge of a wall) and then up the reef back to the anchor line. We were told the cruise line set the 80' max depth limit for liability reasons, yet nobody was asked how deep they went or about any issues with that depth based upon training or the lack of.

My only input would be I didn't like that dive of the day. While following the DM, the other 11 people were doing whatever they wanted to some degree. I had some idiot cut in front of my son and I doing flips underwater as if he was narced. The DM had no idea and I was on her heels and slightly above with my son due depth and experience levels. When I hit my gas plan limit (which was only my own), I turned the dive to a shallower depth and began a SS. No contact from the DM there either. This was my first dive in GC and while it was an excellent dive site I did not feel safe following the "group's plan." After a few minutes under water I wanted to keep a safe distance from the "vacation divers." ALL of the divers were from the cruise ship and in hearing some of the conversations led me to believe they were just vacation divers. One couple told me they had never done a salt water OW dive! Did the dive op know or ask? NO. To be fair to them though they dove safely IMO.

All this to be said, I did not see a major search operation while diving that day, but there were lots of storms dropping visibility pretty good. If one is to dive anywhere I have to agree with Jimlap that they must be a self-sufficient buddy team! The first dive along the wall ( I believe they stated a 7000fsw drop) was almost a check dive with the group and the DM's because the second dive was shallower 52' at a wreck and reef where the dive op cut the buddy teams loose on their own. I can see how this can be a reoccurring problem if the dive ops don't keep a good eye on the divers. We as divers should be responsible for ourselves so I'm not totally blaming the dive ops for these deaths, but I would think requiring a brief examination of the log books might be in order to gauge how to break up the groups. With the competition for cruise group bids, anything to make it easier on the vacationer is probably why this isn't happening. I know the cruise line was hesitant to give out the dive op under contract during the planning phase too. The cruise shore excursion thought they would be able to field questions themselves (as some do dive) but they couldn't and ended up listing a couple dive ops they used. Face it, this is a tourist spot and diving is a business. While we can hope some dive ops attempt to make things safe and enjoyable for the groups, we must police ourselves too.

So from this it appears that they are still allowing divers of unknown skill and training to do deep wall dives where the actual bottom is over a mile down? Yeah real safe and caring guides they are. More like greedy, self serving, inconsiderate, and dangerous. Must be an unwritten rule somewhere as to what an acceptable body count is.

 

[tanks4thedive]

Rick,

You mentioned in your post that we should learn lessons from this and make sure it doesn't happen again...fair point and i can see what you are saying, however you, me and nobody else knows what happened on this dive, and we probably never wil.

The truth is that the only way to avoid this from happening again is to not go diving and this is not the solution.

I do feel that people on this board are very quick to accuse or as you say "fling poo", basically speculating as to what actually happened. This is a very bad thing to do as new divers who are reading this are going to be put off by all you people who are supposed to be introducing diving to the next generations. Its time to let time do some healing for the family and for us to all shut up and move on from this event, which we have absolutely nothing to do with at all.

Y'all care to get specific with your whines? These posts add absolutely nothing to the identification of hazards or to lessons learned or to constructive discussion on how to avoid such mishaps in the future. Without confronting what you consider "pontificated, exchange of one way ideas" and why you consider those ideas "crap," or what you consider "shows a total lack of respect," they just amount to "flinging poo" and nothing more.
If you two want to present anything useful, please do. Otherwise, take the whines to the Whine & Cheese forum.
Rick

 

[Web Monkey]

Even if it were 7 divers + 2 guides, those numbers suggest that the guides are lacking in group management. That's 3 to 4 divers for one guide to manage.

I could understand if this was a single guide with 10 divers, maybe the DM loses track of a buddy team during the dive but two guides?

If it was managed like the dives I've done with them on previous occasions, the DM takes off and looks for cool stuff, which he points out to whoever managed to keep up with him.

The rest of the group is spread out over hundreds of feet or more, around corners, behind obstructions and generally spread about. There really isn't any "group management" that I've seen.

Terry

 

[Splash-X]

The truth is that the only way to avoid this from happening again is to not go diving and this is not the solution.

This isn't the solution and you know it. If you had said that the solution would be not to dive with operators who knowingly put you in harms way (based on the number of reports we've seen about mishaps similar to this from this operator) I would give you more credit.

Jim seems to put it much better than I did. If an operation has a list of deaths and incidents from their practices.... and they don't change those practices then it would seem reasonable to me to simply not dive with that operation, plain and simple.

I don't see diving as the problem so much as business practices that place unknowing customers in harms way.

 

[tanks4thedive]

inaccurate comment, you weren't there either. You are speculating once again from afar. Please don't speculate Jim its my pet hate. Until you possess facts or you were actually there then someone (not me) might listen to what you are saying.

So from this it appears that they are still allowing divers of unknown skill and training to do deep wall dives where the actual bottom is over a mile down? Yeah real safe and caring guides they are. More like greedy, self serving, inconsiderate, and dangerous. Must be an unwritten rule somewhere as to what an acceptable body count is.

 

[tanks4thedive]

Please re-read what i said and you might notice that i said it was NOT the solution

This isn't the solution and you know it. If you had said that the solution would be not to dive with operators who knowingly put you in harms way (based on the number of reports we've seen about mishaps similar to this from this operator) I would give you more credit.

Jim seems to put it much better than I did. If an operation has a list of deaths and incidents from their practices.... and they don't change those practices then it would seem reasonable to me to simply not dive with that operation, plain and simple.

I don't see diving as the problem so much as business practices that place unknowing customers in harms way.

 

[Web Monkey]

The truth is that the only way to avoid this from happening again is to not go diving and this is not the solution.

The way to prevent this is to be a well-trained responsible diver and dive with a well-trained responsible buddy. While all deaths can't be prevented, even if it was a non-preventable heart-attack, a good buddy would have been able to bring the victim back to the surface.

I do feel that people on this board are very quick to accuse or as you say "fling poo", basically speculating as to what actually happened. This is a very bad thing to do as new divers who are reading this are going to be put off by all you people who are supposed to be introducing diving to the next generations. Its time to let time do some healing for the family and for us to all shut up and move on from this event, which we have absolutely nothing to do with at all.

I feel terrible for the family, but the way to prevent this from recurring is to give it publicity and make the dive ops responsible for making it clear that they provide no in-water safety services and that all buddy pairs are responsible for themselves.

Terry

 

[Granny Scuba]

So from this it appears that they are still allowing divers of unknown skill and training to do deep wall dives where the actual bottom is over a mile down? Yeah real safe and caring guides they are. More like greedy, self serving, inconsiderate, and dangerous. Must be an unwritten rule somewhere as to what an acceptable body count is.

Obviously one cant rely on some dive charters,
So how should I know if I have enough skill level to particpate in a certain dive?

We always tell charters/diveboats/dive shops we are newbies. But few have cared. (probably because most were easy dives)
My sons did a drift dive in Cozumel just 2 days after their certification this July. They had their temp cards. It was no secret they were newly certifed. They played off the wall, out over the abyss. I wasnt even scared...until this thread. We were too dumb to know better.

We even had a dive shop in Pensacola say he would take newbies out to the Orisksany. We were game for it, until after a little research we learned that most dive shops require multiple gulf dives and some even require AOW to dive the Oriskany.

When looking for a panhandle wreck dive, only one Destin shop said that our experience was too minimal and would require us to each have a DM at the cost of $25.00 extra each. I am not sure if they cared for our safety or just wanted the extra cash.

It can't be merely numbers....having 100 dives in a local quarry doesnt equate with 25 dives in the Ocean.

How am I supposed to self evaluate my abilties so I can make a decision on what I am qualifed to or not to do? I wish dive sites had a rating like hiking trail heads. Other than responses from this forum, I am not sure who I would trust to give me a fair evaluation of a particular dive.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

inaccurate comment, you weren't there either. You are speculating once again from afar. Please don't speculate Jim its my pet hate. Until you possess facts or you were actually there then someone (not me) might listen to what you are saying.

If you had read the post I referenced you would see that there is no speculation involved. I referenced the post because the poster stated as fact his own experience and it is clear from that experience that the ops do not care. They are taking divers who have no business on dives such as described and not checking logs, verifying experience, making sure everyone is qualified to do the dives, and failing to properly supervise them.

If they stated up front "hey this dive is on a wall, there is no hard bottom, if you are not an advanced diver you may die, and your body may not be recovered. In addition we are not doing anything other than pointing out stuff and you and your dive buddy are SOLELY responsible for your safety!" I'd have no problem at all. In fact that's what I'd like to hear on a dive boat as it would keep those who have poor skills or insufficient training out of the water. But in fact this is not happening. They are PURPOSELY misleading divers into thinking what they are doing is completely safe and routine. As a result of this they are killing some of them.

Nice move for their business, the islands, and tourism as a whole. There are enough competent divers out there to take on these dives and keep the underwater tourists in safer spots. Perhaps they should think about how many trips they lose when their boats are tied up looking for a missing diver or body. Maybe putting it in a money perspective will get through their thick skulls. Corpses don't seem to do the trick. This section is not for condolences. It is for analysis of these incidents in an attempt to identify issues that have OR may have led to these things and pass on that knowledge so others do not have to die.

And I don't see anything wrong with pointing out to new divers that this sport will kill them if they give it a chance. And there are many ways of doing that. A real good one is trusting a DM or Guide to keep them safe on a group dive. If this scares new divers or makes a potential new diver think twice about taking up this activity-GOOD!

They should be thinking twice or even three times. And if they still want to do it then maybe they will carefully consider who they train with, what training they need, where they will dive, and what ops and resorts they will dive with. If that was happening now with all new divers there would be more than few people walking around instead of in a grave or being fish food.

 

[InTheDrink]

Obviously one cant rely on some dive charters,
So how should I know if I have enough skill level to particpate in a certain dive?

We always tell charters/diveboats/dive shops we are newbies. But few have cared. (probably because most were easy dives)
My sons did a drift dive in Cozumel just 2 days after their certification this July. They had their temp cards. It was no secret they were newly certifed. They played off the wall, out over the abyss. I wasnt even scared...until this thread. We were too dumb to know better.

We even had a dive shop in Pensacola say he would take newbies out to the Orisksany. We were game for it, until after a little research we learned that most dive shops require multiple gulf dives and some even require AOW to dive the Oriskany.

When looking for a panhandle wreck dive, only one Destin shop said that our experience was too minimal and would require us to each have a DM at the cost of $25.00 extra each. I am not sure if they cared for our safety or just wanted the extra cash.

It can't be merely numbers....having 100 dives in a local quarry doesnt equate with 25 dives in the Ocean.

How am I supposed to self evaluate my abilties so I can make a decision on what I am qualifed to or not to do? I wish dive sites had a rating like hiking trail heads. Other than responses from this forum, I am not sure who I would trust to give me a fair evaluation of a particular dive.

Million dollar question and well expressed. For a good while now I have been terrified of what seems frequently to be on offer from a lot of Ops which essentially seems to be based on luck. Or, put another way, assuming dive goes well all is well. Add one or more stresses it could so easily go south. I recently met someone that went to 30m+ on a try dive.

The simple answer is to become self reliant. I've done this through practising lots so that I am comfortable in most situations inside rec OW/AOW levels. Just getting basic OW techniques off to a pat. Experience plays a big part too and I can only suggest getting as many dives locally with a buddy or instructor that you trust until your experience level is such that judgement comes natural.

But the key thing to learn is to not trust anyone but yourself, your buddy and your instincts. Dive master is simply a tag, there are good and bad. Don't hold them in a position of trust or respect until they've earned it.

J