Mr Chattertons Self Reliance Article...

[MXGratefulDiver]

I would expect this from you. Situation was: donate primary and watch needy diver inflate for the surface...

... that happened to me once ... got dragged from 90 fsw to about 25 before I managed to get my reg back ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[nakatomi]

You have to remember that two of your goals are simply antithetical to the core values of team diving -- one is absolute self-reliance, in the sense of diving solo in the company of others, and the other is being able to work random mixed teams. The problems are related: The equipment and procedures are adopted with an eye toward functioning as a team, which means the team has to function. This is one of the places where I think we talk past one another a lot. If you have never had the pleasure of diving extensively with equally well-trained and similarly equipped and inclined divers, I can see where you would be very likely to dismiss the idea that buddies are even very useful.

To me self-reliance in the context you are describing - cave diving with random buddies - simply means that I won't be needing their help, at least I'm planning not to. It doesn't mean that I won't play the exact role that is expected of me in a functioning team. If I dive in a team, I will be a team player, that's the deal and the agreement before diving together.
Since I dive with backmount divers frequently, I always carry a longhose. I explain to them, before every dive, in great detail how we can share gas and what they must observe about my side mount configuration, which is very little.
My right side regulator is on a 7ft long hose and attached with a quick break away connector to aid in case I am not breathing it and it should be clipped to a D-ring. I carry my short hose regulator on a necklace that can also be ripped off. So they could grab either regulator, even the one I'm breathing, and get gas either way. As you can see I make it very easy and convenient for someone to receive gas from me, at least I try. I have received proper training in this configuration and among other things I was trained to share gas in this exact configuration, and how to do it fast and efficiently.
But I am still self-reliant in the sense that I will not likely need this service ever by other members of the team. I will also mark all navigational decisions with my own marker, familiarize myself well with the map and the entire dive plan, every little step of it. I am known to ask many questions. And I will turn the dive should I feel that it is reaching a stage that is beyond the comfort zone I would have, should I do this dive on my own. In short words, with a random buddy I would go no further than I would dare venture on my own. I will not trust someone I do not know with my life, neither should they if you ask me.
I hope this helps to understand the point I'm driving at, what the benefit of self-reliance can be?


---------- Post added February 19th, 2013 at 10:43 PM ----------

You will probably find though that there is not much that we see that is actually "new" in the sense that you would be the first one to bring it up. However, if you think you have something, we are all ears.

Thank you for your explanation, which I find very reasonable. You have expressed your views, GUE's strategies and position on the topics we were discussing, all of which I respect.

Now since you asked several times, I have never been GUE trained, although at one point I did in fact consider it. I was however a member of GUE until very recently, so I am sort of familiar with much of what the organization is doing and not doing. I have also talked to many decision makers in GUE, among others I had lengthy discussions with David Rhea and Jarrod Jablonski, whom I have met several times and I certainly know his position regarding rebreathers.
I've also read and studied the course materials for most of your courses, and I own all the books that are considered required for them. Several of my dive peers are GUE trained, so I do have a little insight from that perspective as well.
Oh, and the fall? 2012 issue of Quest that you mentioned, the one with the side mount article, that I have read. And many others.
So as a result I would suppose, short of having actually been trained, I do know a little bit about DIR, and GUE.

I've mentioned this elsewhere I think, two thirds of the cave diving market has switched to diving side mount. Do you seriously think this is a marketing fab and they will all switch back eventually? I don't think so.

So since you asked, I think that's something to should look at. Because cave diving has jump-started the market once, and it might just happen again. We'll see.
Rebreathers is a very similar topic, if you look closely, this is a market that is moving fast as well.
Both side mount and rebreather diving could use some form of standardization in equipment compatibility, training and procedures , I'm convinced about that. And that's where GUE shines, when it comes to the quality of training.

Now I'm certainly in no position to judge your strategies or tell you what to do or think. And I respect your views.
Just one thing I'm wishing for is for the DIR followers to respect different opinions as well. I can see that some can, while others have serious problems with this. Well, so be it.

Oliver

 

[GShockey]

To me self-reliance in the context you are describing - cave diving with random buddies - simply means that I won't be needing their help, at least I'm planning not to. It doesn't mean that I won't play the exact role that is expected of me in a functioning team. If I dive in a team, I will be a team player, that's the deal and the agreement before diving together.
Since I dive with backmount divers frequently, I always carry a longhose. I explain to them, before every dive, in great detail how we can share gas and what they must observe about my side mount configuration, which is very little.
My right side regulator is on a 7ft long hose and attached with a quick break away connector to aid in case I am not breathing it and it should be clipped to a D-ring. I carry my short hose regulator on a necklace that can also be ripped off. So they could grab either regulator, even the one I'm breathing, and get gas either way. As you can see I make it very easy and convenient for someone to receive gas from me, at least I try. I have received proper training in this configuration and among other things I was trained to share gas in this exact configuration, and how to do it fast and efficiently.
But I am still self-reliant in the sense that I will not likely need this service ever by other members of the team. I will also mark all navigational decisions with my own marker, familiarize myself well with the map and the entire dive plan, every little step of it. I am known to ask many questions. And I will turn the dive should I feel that it is reaching a stage that is beyond the comfort zone I would have, should I do this dive on my own. In short words, with a random buddy I would go no further than I would dare venture on my own. I will not trust someone I do not know with my life, neither should they if you ask me.
I hope this helps to understand the point I'm driving at, what the benefit of self-reliance can be?


---------- Post added February 19th, 2013 at 10:43 PM ----------



Thank you for your explanation, which I find very reasonable. You have expressed your views, GUE's strategies and position on the topics we were discussing, all of which I respect.

Now since you asked several times, I have never been GUE trained, although at one point I did in fact consider it. I was however a member of GUE until very recently, so I am sort of familiar with much of what the organization is doing and not doing. I have also talked to many decision makers in GUE, among others I had lengthy discussions with David Rhea and Jarrod Jablonski, whom I have met several times and I certainly know his position regarding rebreathers.
I've also read and studied the course materials for most of your courses, and I own all the books that are considered required for them. Several of my dive peers are GUE trained, so I do have a little insight from that perspective as well.
Oh, and the fall? 2012 issue of Quest that you mentioned, the one with the side mount article, that I have read. And many others.
So as a result I would suppose, short of having actually been trained, I do know a little bit about DIR, and GUE.

I've mentioned this elsewhere I think, two thirds of the cave diving market has switched to diving side mount. Do you seriously think this is a marketing fab and they will all switch back eventually? I don't think so.

So since you asked, I think that's something to should look at. Because cave diving has jump-started the market once, and it might just happen again. We'll see.
Rebreathers is a very similar topic, if you look closely, this is a market that is moving fast as well.
Both side mount and rebreather diving could use some form of standardization in equipment compatibility, training and procedures , I'm convinced about that. And that's where GUE shines, when it comes to the quality of training.

Now I'm certainly in no position to judge your strategies or tell you what to do or think. And I respect your views.
Just one thing I'm wishing for is for the DIR followers to respect different opinions as well. I can see that some can, while others have serious problems with this. Well, so be it.

Oliver

I think we can agree to respect each other without have to agree to each others opinions.

I see some valid use on some occasions to using sidemount for caves, but as Fred wrote in his article, the large majority of caves may be safely dove using a backmount configuration with single isolation manifold. You seem to hold pretty solid views on this so I won't spend any time on this subject but you may want to ask yourself why the perspective of GUE is different from yours.

Oliver, you honestly won't have all your issues addressed until or unless you actually have GUE training. Up to that point, all the reading in the world will not substitute for that. There is a reason the instructor making process in GUE is laborious and requiring such a significant commitment on the part of the instructor candidate. They really do bring more to the class than recycling written material. There is a significant difference between eating in a restaurant and reading their menu.

2/3 of the cave diving market has switched to side mount? That seems high but I will count all the divers I see this coming week in N Fl and not just my team mates. I think that number is high but I will ask around. I would be surprised but it wouldn't be the first time. The whole thing about fads is that they do capture a significant part of the market wherever they are. I shudder to think of the pile of rubics cubes we would have if we piled them all in a land fill. With regard to sidemount jumpstarting the market, if you consider what your suggested advantages were with respect to gas, etc., and we just look at OW for a second I don't think they are going to bring anything else to that party that is not solved in your fashion by independent doubles, and that particular horse has been beaten to death also. So, again, I don't see this exactly taking the OW world by storm.

In any case, my personal preference is to learn one set of emergency protocol for my equipment so I can ensure that when murphy comes calling and I really need a solution to a problem, in a situation where the wrong solution may be very suboptimal, that solution is ingrained in my muscle memory and I do not risk doing the wrong thing when I have one kick at the can.

G

 

[nakatomi]

With regard to sidemount jumpstarting the market, if you consider what your suggested advantages were with respect to gas, etc., and we just look at OW for a second I don't think they are going to bring anything else to that party that is not solved in your fashion by independent doubles, and that particular horse has been beaten to death also. So, again, I don't see this exactly taking the OW world by storm.

Not to make this a discussion about side mount, but actually I think most people dive side mount not as a specific tool but for other reasons. It's much easier on the back carrying one tank at a time as opposed to heavy doubles. This is especially true for getting tanks in and out of the car. Obviously, or so I heard, the diving population is getting older, so this is a serious factor. Next thing, side mount diving does feel very natural when done right, meaning in good trim. Which actually is a bit easier than in backmounted doubles. The first dive I did felt so genuinely good that I knew this was what I wanted to keep on doing, even though I had very good trim and no issues at all in backmounted doubles. Next when you use it you come to enjoy all the other benefits.
You're absolutely right, 99% of the diving population don't need it, and 99.5% don't need rebreathers. But then they don't NEED to dive in the first place, they choose to because they can

In any case, my personal preference is to learn one set of emergency protocol for my equipment so I can ensure that when murphy comes calling and I really need a solution to a problem, in a situation where the wrong solution may be very suboptimal, that solution is ingrained in my muscle memory and I do not risk doing the wrong thing when I have one kick at the can.

Yes, very true. Swapping back and forth between equipment and procedures is absolutely no good.

Oliver

 

[rjack321]

Yes, very true. Swapping back and forth between equipment and procedures is absolutely no good.

This is completely bunk. Good divers can dive anything well, and regardless of gear any "exciting moments" never seem to escalate to the point of being emergencies either. And they magically seem to avoid being mugged for their regulators, maybe because they can tell a potential reg mugger from miles away and never get on the boat with them in the first place. Or if they do end up on the boat with a reg mugger they recognize that buddying up with the clueless is actually the safest course of action; since they can keep them in sight, monitor the potential mugger's gas, and call the dive on their behalf before muggings ever take place.

 

[PfcAJ]

You're absolutely right, 99% of the diving population don't need it, and 99.5% don't need rebreathers. But then they don't NEED to dive in the first place, they choose to because they can

This is where a real divide is, imo. We tend to look at doing the dive as a goal, and not using some special kit as the goal.

If you're going to dive, you take what's needed. Nothing more. Nothing less. If the dive doesn't need a RB (or sidemount, or anything, really) why take it and subject your self to increased risk and hassle? To me and the people I dive with "because I can" isn't good enough.

 

[DevonDiver]

This is completely bunk. Good divers can dive anything well, and regardless of gear any "exciting moments" never seem to escalate to the point of being emergencies either.

In recreational diving...maybe. I don't agree with this from a technical diving perspective.

We all have a task loading threshold.

We all have a comfort zone.

We all have a panic point.

ALL OF US.

Diving in less/unfamiliar gear increases that task loading. It prevents muscle memory and instinct from assisting us when our brain's fry with stress overload.

In that respect, equipment consistency is a beneficial factors whether you're a brain-fried novice diver struggling with a new BCD in the shallows... or a "good diver" dealing with a catastrophic failure in the bowels of a wreck, light-years from the surface...

Any diver who thinks they are "so good" that they can deal with anything is riding a rampant ego towards an inevitable wake-up call...

 

[lowviz]

In recreational diving...maybe. I don't agree with this from a technical diving perspective. ...//...

OMG, all the way around the barn and back! I'm going to look for an unbroken chair and bottle, put my feet up, and watch this barfight. It has, once again, moved out of scope for me. Back to the OP...

 

[DevonDiver]

It has, once again, moved out of scope for me.

There was a scope?

 

[lowviz]

There was a scope?

Not much of anything, let alone a scope.


You fish, I'll cut bait for a while...