My dive incident

[openmindOW]

Ideally, the OP should have known to abandon the dive immediately, however classes have been so badly fragmented that most of the information needed to make a decision like this has been pushed off into Stress & Rescue. Current OW classes really only cover what's required to dive and probably not get killed, but lack any serious foundation for making decisions in new situations.

Amen.

I don't really see a solution here. The chances of raising OW standards are about the same as having Elvis and Sasquatch stop by for dinner . . . . [

I respectfully disagree. We can and should raise standards.

Well-trained Instructors will be reluctant to certify unready divers. So the key is to raise standards for Dive Professionals.

We Instructors have to become worthy gate-keepers. We can't give cards to people who are not ready to be good, safe divers.

I am teaching a private class now with 3 students. They wanted to go to do their OW dives over Christmas in Florida. But their skills weren't there, so I did not authorize them to go for their OW check-out dives. They weren't happy.

We as Instructors have to be willing to say, "Not yet; you're not yet ready for the c-card."

 

[openmindOW]

Divers are handed cards that they have no business possessing. But it is good for business. It brings in money to the shops, agencies, and operators. I am becoming more and more disenchanted by the "they will be diving with a DM or Guide anyway" mentality so it;s ok to give them a card.

Amen.

That mentality is out there, and it is terrible.

 

[openmindOW]

Where do you live? I would probably be 4 to 5 hours from west palm (to the north). In the Gainesville area. I would dive with you. I have been diving over a year and a half. Have about 40 dives. AOW but no nitrox yet. I also live near quite a few springs which may be ideal to get some dives under your belt.

This is a helpful and thoughtful post. Thank you.

Go diving, guys.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

....Should a DM go to a diver struggling on the surface without a buddy? Absolutely! Even if he only escorts him back to the boat. Does this cause inconvenience to the other divers? Sure; so what? A few minutes shouldn't make much difference. When other divers realize that this is how Clients are treated, they can't help but appreciate that if it was them, it's what they would want.

I .

This is entirely impractical in this location. THe DM is a guide and needs to lead the dive to keep the other people on the reef which may extend over one mile long. If the DM rushes to the surface to escort every clown who can't handle basic diving skills, the other clients are left unprotected by the float.

Leaving a group of people in a 2 kt current for a couple of minutes is a big deal. How do you expect the divemaster to make a safe ascent re-locate the group and re-descend under these conditions in a couple of minutes? In 10 minutes the group could be hundreds of yards away and might possibly be spread out or start popping to the surface all over the place since they no longer have a dive guide. So in order to re-drop the dive guide where the capt thinks the group might now be, he has to drive the boat quickly over the exact same area where the other customers will be ascending.

Your advice for a Dive guide seems like it is right out of a PADI book, but has very little applicability in the real world. These are not some tourist dives with the boat anchored in 60 feet of calm, clear, still water.


The OP still thinks his Instructor was "great", but he expected a DM to babysit him, check his air, and be responsible for his gear as well. I find this attitude to be very common, most all new divers think their instructor was "great" and it takes some time for them to understand that most instructors (that teach to standards and follow an extremely abbreviated course) have delivered instrucion that is often inadequate for real world, independent diving. Try asking a brand new diver what he will do when his BC power inflator sticks in the "on" position. Even though this is a pretty common scuba failure, most don't have a clue. Failure to completely understand what to do can easily kill a diver when they shoot to the surface.

Ideally, the DM and the captain should have designated that this guy buddy up with someone other than the DM, since the dive guide's responsibilities make him unable to provide 100% attention to the diver.

 

[TeddyDiver]

Nobody said anything like that so no need to contradict you A couple of remarks..
Why some of you feel so hostile about DM's role? If someone feels better without "Divemastering" so he has no need for one. But, if there is, and some help, supervision or whatever is asked, it should be what DM gives. If that wasn't possible due circumstances it should have been stated. But defineatly "follow me" and never look back is not the way..

 

[Jim Lapenta]

A DM's primary role used to be to anticipate the needs of the INSTRUCTOR and provide assistance as directed by him. Of course this was before people started getting OW certifications that they had no business having.

I was one of those. I did not know enough to keep from trusting a "DiveMaster" to not follow her to 60 feet looking for the instructor when I showed her I had 500 psi left in the tank. She motioned for me to follow, I did not know any better. This was dive #13. THat should have been a clue! I thought she knew exactly where he was and would have him escort me to the surface. Which he ended up doing. And that was good because unknown to all was that my SPG was off by 300 psi. When we hit 20 feet I sucked in and got nothing. I signaled OOA and he gave me his octo.

When the DM came out of the water she looked at the instructor and said "*** did you expect me to do?". She never even looked at me, asked if I was ok, apologized, etc. THis was when I made my mind up that not only would I not be that kind of DM but that I would NEVER trust anyone to keep me safe. From that time I worked on the skills I would need to dive safely without a pro in the water.

I tell this story to every student. I also put it in their heads that they need to be responsible for themselves. To never expect or trust a DM/Guide to keep them safe unless they specifically contract one for that purpose. Of course if I feel a student needs to do this in conditions similar to what they have trained in or better they are not ready to get a cert card from me anyway. If they want one to show them around that's ok. But if they need one I have failed as an instructor and/or they have not put forth the effort I require to earn a certification. A DM in the water is, to many, a crutch.

They have not been trained to dive independently and it shows. If a person does not know how to assemble their gear they have no business on a boat. If they cannot do a weight check and properly set their weights they should still be in the pool. If they think that it is ok to be uncomfortable unless there is a pro in the water their instruction has been a joke. They have had their money taken by an unscrupulous person or shop who does not give crap about producing safe, competent, and skilled divers. Their only concern is how much money can they get and how many certs issued is in their file.

Whoop de friggin do!

Somebody issued 100 certs this year! Half of them never dove again because they got the crap scared out of them the first time they were on their own. More just did it for something to do, a few came back to take AOW class, and 5 are actually decent divers and only 1 trusted a DM who led him on a dive that killed him(because he was never taught otherwise). But they got the 100 certs! You is a master scuba teacher dude.

 

[openmindOW]

But, Jim, let's not blame the students for the poor instruction that their Instructors are providing.

 

[tfsails]

I'm merely an AI, but I've DM'd for many OW classes, all in our local quarry. Back in late 2000, I was a two-week wonder; I went from nothing to AOW in two weeks. After I got home, I pondered the quality of my dive education to that point. I found that diving knowledge didn't come intuitively to me, so I decided to train up to DM/AI, not necessarily to be a DM, but so I could be satisfied that I had enough training to be a safe, competent diver. Along the way, I discovered that I had received a pretty decent dive education in those initial two weeks. I have no desire to be an Instructor; but if I were, I think I'd be tougher than what I've seen from some other instructors.

I can state with certainty, however, that the shop I work for will not give anyone a cert just because he paid for the course. We let them know up front that they're buying training, not the cert. We'll give 'em the cert if they deserve it. If they don't they get more instruction. I have yet to hear a student complain about the reasoning behind what we do. And yes, we've had students fail the course.

We also emphasize continued training; that the basic OW cert, like a private pilot certificate, is a license to learn. We emphasize taking baby steps and extending the diver's comfort zone incrementally. Of course, some students are stronger than others, and it shows in their diving. The weaker ones get strong advice from us on what to work on before going out in the ocean.

 

[openmindOW]

I also put it in their heads that they need to be responsible for themselves. To never expect or trust a DM/Guide to keep them safe unless they specifically contract one for that purpose. Of course if I feel a student needs to do this in conditions similar to what they have trained in or better they are not ready to get a cert card from me anyway. If they want one to show them around that's ok. But if they need one I have failed as an instructor and/or they have not put forth the effort I require to earn a certification. A DM in the water is, to many, a crutch.

Jim, as our posts over the past year indicate, you and I are in general agreement on OW training.

Let's not to be too harsh on new divers who follow the instructions of Divemasters. Boat passengers know that they should follow the instructions of the boat crew and DMs are crew.

They're called Divemasters. Hell, that sounds pretty authoritative to new divers. "He's the DiveMASTER; he must know what he is doing."

Where you and I might disagree is on hiring DMs. If a new diver wants to hire a DM to be a guide or a buddy, I'm okay with that. It certainly beats getting teamed-up with insta-buddy on the dive boat. Yes, it should not be a crutch.

Just my opinion.

 

[TeddyDiver]

A DM's primary role used to be to anticipate the needs of the INSTRUCTOR and provide assistance as directed by him.

Lets not talk about classes. Leading OW dives and assisting an instructor are two different tasks..
And I'm really sorry to hear DM's suck so much there.. but they shouldn't, so why not to say what they are supposed to do