My own equipment not allowed for Open Water class?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

This is definitely part of what I'm looking for, as I want to work on my buoyancy and trim as early as possible. Is there a way to ask the instructor about this? Would I literally say "do you teach neutrally buoyant" and expect them to know what I'm asking about?

Lord help them if they give you a confused look. At that point, exclaim "oh sh!t! I left my cat in the oven to dry off" and run out the door.

So this is actually an interesting point. The SSI shop is $425 for the course plus that $275 equipment fee, which (coincidentally?) works out to $700. The PADI shop is around $500 I think.. Today I called two more shops, and one (SSI/PADI) was $650, while the other (SDI) was around $400 but then was an additional $220 to get into the park for the OW part, and then additional fees on top of that. So I think those are roughly the prices around here and that $425 price tag does seem like a carrot to get you in the door. But maybe I'm just paranoid at this point. You all made a very valid point (several times) that it's about the instructor, so I'm going to withhold making a decision until I chat with both.

Ask the instructor about how many hours and how much compensation they receive. It should come out to at least minimum wage, but that's not always true. This is one reason you get max ratios in courses. There are all sorts of expenses associated with a course: equipment, gas fills, insurance, dues, course materials. I like to explain my costs and let my students decide if the hourly rate is fair or not.

EDIT #2: If you have no objections to FB, check out these videos of Ryan @custureri in Ft. Lauderdale. AQUI Water Sports – Videos

 

[MichaelMc]

Ask if they require all the skills neutrally buoyant. You want to find out if they will have you on your knees or not. So you might start by asking if you can do the skills on your knees. And see if they say sure, whatever is easier for you. Once you narrow down on a shop that says "well we find it better for the students to spend more time mid water and we find they learn well that way", also ask who is teaching specifically and have that same conversation with them. Though maybe more straightforward on neutral, and asking their experience. If that turns out to be "sure we do that, whatever", maybe rethink them.

Once you find someone to teach neutral from the start and have gotten your cert, call back the others and tell them why you did not go with them.

Your gear would be nice. But the above issue comes before it. And yes, requiring you use their gear maybe so they get to rent or sell it.

 

[lowwall]

Ok. A little more detail. If they look at you like you are nuts, you can change it to, "How many of the skills are taught on the knees?" and "At what point do we start working on trim?"

If the answers are "All of them" and "Oh, that's a different course", then put your hand on your wallet and carefully head for the exit.

 

[Esprise Me]

FWIW, I didn't know enough to ask that question before OW, but out of curiosity, I asked around my local shops later. I was able to find some instructors who start students on their knees in the pool before having them move into trim, but none who insisted on neutral buoyancy throughout. Maybe there are some I just didn't get around to asking; there are a lot around here. I'd love to see it become the norm. But if I were in the rural South and unable to travel for an OW course, I wouldn't make that my hill to die on. I did all my skills on my knees in my OW course, and I got my act together soon enough after. You can, too.

 

[lowwall]

@Horgh

It may help to know how an OW class actually operates. I'm going to skip the classroom part since that's likely to be e-learning except for a quick review/knowledge check at the start of each section. The in-water part mostly consists of going through a literal checklist of skills. For the closed water (pool) part, for each skill, first the instructor describes the skill, then demonstrates it and then the students do it one at a time. Once everyone demonstrates it satisfactorily, you move on to the next skill. The open water portion mostly consists of running through the same set of skills, except that some of them can be combined to cut down on the account of time spent on the surface.

In the olden days (like when I got certified in 2000), all of these demonstrations and waiting were done with the students on their knees on the bottom of the pool or sandy bottom or maybe a platform in a quarry. Now, ideally, the instructor will teach the students how to stay more or less neutrally buoyant and in trim very early in the class. It's possible for this to be done while still on a snorkel or immediately after you start breathing off a regulator. In this case, not only are the skills learned in the same position you will be in when actually diving, all of the time that used to be wasted sitting on your knees while the other students demonstrated skills is now useful because you are actively practicing your buoyancy and trim.

I'll attach the WRSTC Open Water standard to the end of this post. The list of skills is at section 4.8 and 4.9. All the commercial agencies base their standards on this. That's why you can freely move from one agency to another for any additional training.

FWIW, my son was certified a year and a half ago. He had all of his own gear which consisted of my old backplate and hardware, but new harness webbing, wing and regs. The shop had no problem with him using his own gear. It was a private class and they spent about 30 minutes going over the most basic skills on the knees and then pretty much everything else was done neutral or floating on the surface.

 

[MichaelMc]

Spending your learning time neutrally buoyant (and in trim) will be more efficient, and likely leave you moving more naturally in the water at the end of class. But, as mentioned, it is not historically the norm. And there are many who have not moved on to it from the old ways.

So finding an instructor doing it may involve a search. My above advice to ask if you can do it all on the knees and then see if they respond with "No we teach a new better way" may not be the most efficient. Asking the shop for a neutral from the start teacher, and explaining that, may be more efficient in finding someone in your area. As long as you then interview that instructor to ensure they are not just saying "sure we do that" and then teaching you on your knees or switching off with an instructor that does it on the knees.

 

[Stoo]

I bought a bunch over the phone/online. Only cost around 7k

ya online can be less beacuse they have a crappy warehouse so less overhead. And no $30K air system.

Are you getting you fills from them too? Mail your tanks in, get them back in two weeks....

Support your local dive shop people... without them, you're going to be buying your own compressor.

 

[formernuke]

ya online can be less beacuse they have a crappy warehouse so less overhead. And no $30K air system.

Are you getting you fills from them too? Mail you tanks in, get them back in two weeks....

Support your local dive shop people... without them, you're going to be buying your own compressor.

I have my own compressor and fill.station, ordered over the net/phone. Cost around 7k.

 

[lexvil]

While there is good reason to start with diverse training rather than stick with one agency, the best part of a PADI AOW card is it will be accepted all over the world, the advice to find the most qualified instructor (not easy to ascertain but worth the effort) is the most valuable here, only so much can be gleaned from the net, you will find absolute adherents of all 360 degrees of each issue, ego is a killer.

I’ve only been diving since 1971 I sometimes find myself amused by the newly minted “professionals” telling my what’s possible and what’s impossible.

while I would choose different gear in some cases than you have, only because I’ve tried most of it, you choice Togo BP/W is very sound but there are also good b/c’s available and Shearwater is a great choice. You will usually find good discounts for some of the gear through the training shop just resist bundles unless they include the actual stuff you want or reasonably close.

 

[Doby45]

I am going to say it and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth among the crowd here. In your area you are not going to find any standard "group" classes that are not being taught on their knees. If you are wanting neutrally buoyant training you are going to have to go with a private class and you will have to require that of your instructor. Once again, I think we are dealing with a small microcosm of divers here on this site and I assure you that even in this small microcosm of ultra elite divers (Scubaboard Divers) the moral majority of them were all taught OW on their knees. Not to say ALL of course, but the majority, yes. Way too much is being nitpicked about a simple OW cert. Get your cert in whatever fashion you can and THEN progress down the rabbit hole of advanced and technical diving.