NC: Scuba diver dies after rescue

[SC_Hoaty]

Very sad situation and my warmest thoughts go out to all involved.

With that said, one reason these posts exist on SB is so newbies like myself can hopefully learn something.

Can someone please explain a "negative entry" and when it would be used?

And, why would holding onto an anchor line be potentially dangerous?

Thank you.

We use negative entries as the surface current can be strong at times. If you stopped at the surface to gather yourself and signal OK, the current can pull you away from the boat and you could be doing it from 1/2 mile away. We usually meet our buddies on the hang line beneath the boat which is attached to the anchor line going down to the wreck.

As I said in an earlier post, NOT hanging on to the anchor line is dangerous. I never see the anchor line bouncing a great deal. Sometimes the hang line at 15 feet does. If the hang line is bouncing wildly when I am ascending, I'll do the safety stop while on the anchor line. But if either is bouncing such that holding on firmly will make you unable to control your depth safely, there are a variety of ways to deal with it. Use a jon line and let the line swing without pulling you with it, use your gloves and maintain your position while the line bounces, go down a few feet so that you are not swinging from 15 to 5, etc. And above all, keep breathing. Sometimes people instinctually hold their breath when they are in current and a bit anxious. That could get ugly.

Did you want to define what "negative entry" is? I would define it as being negatively buoyant upon entry - you sink as opposed to float.

And to further help:

 

[freewillie]

Was trying to keep low key, but I am a doctor. General Internist (not intern!) in So Cal, been in practice 12 years. Not sure why, but still get little embarassed when have to tell people I'm an MD. Guess makes me uncomfortable because sounds like I'm bragging.

Previous post was that the initial autopsy report did not reveal immediate cause of death. Generally speaking formal process takes weeks. Initial autopsy done on actress Brittany Murphy also did not reveal immediate cause of death. Final result for her ultimately was pneumonia. Coroners like to wait until toxicology reports before concluding cardiac condition exclude things like cocaine which would change the type of heart attack legally listed. No reason to suspect in this case but can't get official result until them.

 

[lulubelle]

Did you want to define what "negative entry" is? I would define it as being negatively buoyant upon entry - you sink as opposed to float.

I suppose that your definition is the correct one.

Generally though, I'm pretty neutral when I jump, I jump and fin down the first few feet, never touch my BC unless there is some air trapped in it and I am releasing it, and don't have any trouble maintaining my depth for the safety stop when I ascend. Works for me.

Thanks for the pictures of the rig. Cool.

 

[DandyDon]

Ok this is the post I couldn't find last night, that made me think the initial autopsy results were in...

I just wanted to share what little information had been added. There currently seems to be no medical reason for this tragedy. Futher toxicology results will take weeks. I just wanted to post an update even though it seems uninformative.

Was trying to keep low key, but I am a doctor. General Internist (not intern!) in So Cal, been in practice 12 years. Not sure why, but still get little embarassed when have to tell people I'm an MD. Guess makes me uncomfortable because sounds like I'm bragging.

Not at all. It's nice to know if the poster happens to know what he's talking about.

Previous post was that the initial autopsy report did not reveal immediate cause of death. Generally speaking formal process takes weeks. Initial autopsy done on actress Brittany Murphy also did not reveal immediate cause of death. Final result for her ultimately was pneumonia. Coroners like to wait until toxicology reports before concluding cardiac condition exclude things like cocaine which would change the type of heart attack legally listed. No reason to suspect in this case but can't get official result until them.

Ok thanks.

 

[openmindOW]

Most other causes are going to be cardiac. Fatal heart rhythm most likely from heart attack. Other would include rupture aorta or aortic dissection. Impossible to tell if he was having any symptoms during the dive.

We are going to have to wait for autopsy results.

Yes, the autopsy report will be important.

So will the analysis of his cylinder gas. I hope that is being properly taken care of.

Is there anything else that could cause a sudden loss of unconsciousness?

The autopsy may report that the cause was "drowning." That happens in SCUBA fatalities sometimes. It's also possible that the autopsy may report a lung over-expansion injury; that could possibly have happened while the rescue diver brought the victim up from depth.

 

[freewillie]

Generally speaking, when patient pass out all of a sudden it is either a sudden cardiac event or a neurologic event. The latter is usually going to be a seizure or similar event. By the witness descriptions this does not appear to be the case. So one would suspect the former, usually some cardiac event.

A sudden heart irregularity would be the most likely. Only problem is that is very uncommon in younger healthy individuals. The common fatal heart conditions usually happen in the setting of prior heart disease, usually a history of prior heart attack. Another heart condition is subaortic hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. You might recall this is the heart condition in young athletes that cause them to drop on the court/field and is the condition basketball star Hank Gathers had.

Just remembered, one reason to wait for toxicology report is that over the counter medications sometimes can have significant interactions with heart rhythms. Take for example certain diet supplements, Sudafed, other cold rememedies, and certain caffeine drinks like Red Bull and similar. Many of these supplements have been clearly associated with medically significant heart rhthyms and ER visits. Only problem is finding and underwater ER for a diver. (sorry, bad joke)

There are ways to determine if an fatal event happened while the diver was underwater or if victim was still breathing. The amount of sea water in the lungs will alert the coroner to how long after the diver passed out did the victim continue to breath. A small amount suggests that the diver died immediately underwater, and a large amount would suggest the diver was still trying to breath even when unconscious under water. Official cause of death may still be listed as drowning either way.

Guess (no pun intended) we will just have to wait for the official autopsy results.

 

[openmindOW]

Another heart condition is subaortic hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.

Thank you for your input, Freewillie. ScubaBoard is a good place to learn new things.

Take for example certain diet supplements, Sudafed, other cold rememedies, and certain caffeine drinks like Red Bull and similar. Many of these supplements have been clearly associated with medically significant heart rhthyms and ER visits.

There are a lot of divers who take Sudafed prior to diving in order to reduce the affects of sinus congestion. Can Sudafed can cause arrythmias? If so, what are the odds of that?

A small amount suggests that the diver died immediately underwater, and a large amount would suggest the diver was still trying to breath even when unconscious under water. Official cause of death may still be listed as drowning either way.

The diver was found without the reg in his mouth. In such circumstances, doesn't it seem likely that there will be salt water in the lungs lungs? In terms of quantity, will CPR compression result in expulsion of some of the water?

 

[freewillie]

Sudafed can cause arrhythmias, but not very likely. Generally speaking several other factors need to be involved such as underlying heart problems to begin with. Amount is important too (always stick to package instructions), as well as other drugs (caffeine) and dehydration.

Even when reg is in mouth, diver an breath around mouthpiece if good seal is not maintained. Such as when become unconscious. And no, CPR will not appreciably remove water in patient's lungs but will make it difficult for patient to breath and reduce effectiveness CPR.

 

[Jaydubya]

Very sad situation and my warmest thoughts go out to all involved.

With that said, one reason these posts exist on SB is so newbies like myself can hopefully learn something.

Can someone please explain a "negative entry" and when it would be used?

And, why would holding onto an anchor line be potentially dangerous?

Thank you.

A negative entry is entering the water while negatively buoyant so that you do not float back to the surface. You might do it to to keep from being swept away by a current before you can grab on to a decent line. There is of course more risk to this entry since if you have a problem you won't be able to signal it and the mate will have no idea that you have a problem. Forget to turn on your air and you now have a very serious problem.

Some make it sound like we are all always doing negative entries here. Frankly, that's poppycock. It varies by boat and by conditions. I personally have not *had* to do any negative entries. I usually splash off the side of the boat, give a quick ok or just salute and hustle on down to the hang line where I meet up with my buddy. I've only had the luxury of waiting for my buddy at the surface one time. As mentioned, we often meet each other on the hang line under the boat. Someone posted a diagram of the way many of the boats are configured.

It suppose it could be dangerous to hold on to a line if it is rapidly moving up and down due to wave action, especially if you hold your breath. Keep your arm loose and let your arm move up and down instead of your lungs. If that's not enough, a Jon line is a real nice things to have.

 

[n733lk]

Thanks for the education everyone.