Near Misses

[RubberDucky]

The other thread has been updated here with a recount of someone on the dive that day.

Summary of Injury:
Diver 1: Blacked out during descent at about 25 feet, 2 minutes into descent.
Diver 2: Blacked out during continuation of descent to first dive level at about 60 feet, 12 minutes into descent / dive.
Diver 3: Blacked out at first dive level 75 feet 13 minutes into descent / dive.

Wow. Doesn't sound like bad air at all, eh? Nope, not one bit. Don't want to say that, might be bad for tourism!

 

[jfcl01]

Thanks to everyone who brought this to our attention and are keeping the thread alive....from the "views" column, it is clear that not enough SBers have read this thread. Hopefully it will continue to get more attention.

 

[DandyDon]

Thanks to everyone who brought this to our attention and are keeping the thread alive....from the "views" column, it is clear that not enough SBers have read this thread. Hopefully it will continue to get more attention.

Probly because of the title. If the title mentioned several severely injured, maybe one dead a local, famous operator - everyone would read it.

I'm sure some operators are reading quietly. I bet they all know exactly what happened and if anyone died but won't say here. Hiding accident info is standard procedure.

It all goes back to us divers, what we will insist on in larger numbers, what we will do for ourselves, etc. We avoid government regulation, and don't trust the various governments we dive under anyway, so we have to do it. Until we do, I'll keep testing my own and hope to not have to test another's tank after an accident or death.

I got 5ppm readings from nitrox half the time this week on Roatan and looked at the electric compressors. The intakes are 15 feet up above the boat dock where engines idled creating a CO plume.

So why are the agencies so silent, even DAN? Bad for business? That's my guess. If any take a real stand, which would disqualify most ops in the world - it would alienate ops and discourage overall diving. Since the smoking gun tanks are quickly hidden in accidents, business as before...

 

[scubafanatic]

spoke with a mate on the island (reliable source IMHO).... he's telling me Palencar did have a problem... according to him couple of folks got bad air and one got the bends... I'm going to talk to Palencar and suggest they explain themselves here before their reputation is irreparably damaged...

This is sooo totally unacceptable that I'm planning to forward this to Undercurrent.org to spread the word ASAP !

 

[ggunn]

This is sooo totally unacceptable that I'm planning to forward this to Undercurrent.org to spread the word ASAP !

Spread what word? That you read a rumor on a web forum that somebody said that somebody said...? I'm not saying that accident details need to be covered up, but I'd be rock solid about my sources before I propagated something like that.

No offense intended.

EDIT: Maybe you were being ironic and I missed it. If that's the case, please disregard.

 

[DandyDon]

Spread what word? That you read a rumor on a web forum that somebody said that somebody said...? I'm not saying that accident details need to be covered up, but I'd be rock solid about my sources before I propagated something like that.

No offense intended.

EDIT: Maybe you were being ironic and I missed it. If that's the case, please disregard.

Gordy, you are right - except the Coz Ops, local news and the government cover it all up so much, it's all we got...!

The Maldives multi-diver accident with one death was published only because other divers brought us the news. The Roatan accident with two dead as well, but the resort fans got the threaded deleted here. We just don't know much other than what we here. No one knows how many divers are severely injured around the world or killed by untested, bad air.

Sadly, the two threads were opened as they were: this one with its title and the other one in the Near Misses forum as this was not a miss! Divers were treated at the chamber, hospitalized, and maybe one dead - we just cannot get the info.

In case anyone following this thread is not following the other thread, here is a strong and appropriate post from there...

"It all goes back to us divers, what we will insist on in larger numbers, what we will do for ourselves, etc." - DandyDon.

Perfectly phrased, DandyDon. It is only through education and reading about incidents like this that we will even be aware of these contamination issues. Relying on PADI or the operators themselves is dangerous. PADI underplays the potential for air contamination in their training materials - none of the PADI materials talk about Pyrolysis (as least when I took the course in 1999). My first instructor said, just smell the air and if it smells okay, then no need to worry. Of course, for obvious reasons, PADI wrote the best way to avoid potential air contamination is to "choose a PADI affiliated dive center", as if that is any guarantee. Well, Palancar is PADI affilitated.

I am so grateful for the internet. This story broke when I was in Bonaire. The next day, when my wife and I went to pick up our tanks (which sat inside the compressor room at the operator we chose), the room stank of turpentine or some other volatile solvent. I chose not to dive at the chance that the tanks may have become contaminated. My wife raised the issue of not keeping open solvents around the compressor and the employee (Ralph) at this place (Carib Inn) told her: "don't worry about it". When she insisted that the solvents might make their way into the tanks, she was told by Ralph: "Just because you take one Scuba course does not mean you know anything".

She then went to complain to Mr. Bowker, the owner. His view was that there was no way any contaminents could possibly make their way into the tanks because the filter would remove 100 percent of them. When she insisted that it could still be a problem and it was not adviseable to be painting around the compressor, he became upset and asked her if she expected him not to paint. I was told the following by someone very knowledgable when I inquired about this situation: "The typical filter contains granular carbon, molecular sieve (as a desiccant) and hopcalite (to convert CO to CO2). However, most filters are changed by an hourly recommendation and some are changed due to an electronic device (e.g. Bauer Securus) that monitors the moisture level of the molecular sieve. In either case, I'd have a hard time feeling good about my gas from the supplier you went to since the high level of volatile vapors most likely will chew through the carbon at high rate and neither hours or an electronic device is going to tell you when saturation or breakthrough of the carbon occurs."

In the end, we were not willing to take the chance on breathing solvents at 4 ATM so we settled up for the time we had been there and went elsewhere. Mr. Bowker provided us with a copy of the report from Trace Analytics that showed that the air had passed the standards for Grade E Air in January, 2010. While I appreciated this, a test done a month prior to the painting incident is no proof that the air is clean at the time of the painting; in fact, it is irrelevant.

But I am just one guy. How many divers will insist that the operator be diligent about avoiding air contamination? Until legions of divers start to demand that operators get more serious about avoiding contamination, I fear incidents like Palancar will continue to crop up, which is sad because we have the technology to avoid it and that technology is dirt cheap in comparison to the dangers that exist.

 

[RubberDucky]

Spread what word? That you read a rumor on a web forum that somebody said that somebody said...?

From the tripadvisor thread, this was posted by Debra, the lady who works with the Red Cross in Cozumel and posts here on ScubaBoard (her name there is "ds2"):

I have personal knowledge of only two divers referred to in the SB thread. (Of course, these stories are also active grapevine topics here.) Those divers were taken to a chamber &, according to the people who treated them, did not suffer from carbon monoxide poisoning.

As I've met her briefly in person once while on the island, I know she's a real human being, that she works with/for REEF, and having seen plenty of her posts here, I feel I can trust the statement above and not chalk the recent incident as just a rumor.


You can find the TripAdvisor thread here, if you are so inclined.

Edit: I am aware that I quoted something that says CO poisoning was not detected in the afflicted divers. However, I am under no illusion that medical personnel are perfect. One of the chambers I and another family member have been to in Cozumel (the one by the McDonalds, was there only for ear issues) is certainly no exception.

 

[ggunn]

From the tripadvisor thread, this was posted by Debra, the lady who works with the Red Cross in Cozumel and posts here on ScubaBoard (her name there is "ds2"):



As I've met her briefly in person once while on the island, I know she's a real human being, that she works with/for REEF, and having seen plenty of her posts here, I feel I can trust the statement above and not chalk the recent incident as just a rumor.


You can find the TripAdvisor thread here, if you are so inclined.

Be that all as it may, it's still hearsay. IMO, the person with the firsthand info should be the one who makes the Midnight Ride.

 

[betsyinczm]

Here is some more "hearsay".........from another ex-pat who has lived on the island for quite sometime......posted today on another forum. Hmmm.

I happened to run into one of the docs that treated some of the affected, so I asked. He did confirm that the cases he treated were in fact CO.

He explained that the problem arose from a truck running near the compressor. He stated that, "the problem has been resolved".

 

[RubberDucky]

Be that all as it may, it's still hearsay. IMO, the person with the firsthand info should be the one who makes the Midnight Ride.

Yup, it is hearsay. "augustib" posted in this thread claiming to have been on the dive with the OP, "Map51", and that his uncle was one of the afflicted divers.

Is it possible that this is a vaguely elaborate plot, fueled by someone's unknown motivation (drag a dive op's name through the mud? spread CO awareness? other?)? Sure. However, there is much to be learned from this incident, be it fictitious or otherwise.

In regards to hearsay, the same can be said of newspapers, television, magazines, and any other source of information. I personally do not feel that means we should be minimizing the subject matter. At some point, at least for myself, I decide that what I've read or heard very well might not be true, but at the same time, it's also quite possible that the events took place. I do not find this story so far fetched that it could only exist in someone's imagination, and I applaud those posting in any thread that want to help spread awareness of issues which could cost someone their life, regardless of whether every detail of every event can be proven 100% or not, and that's just not always possible.