Need Technical Direction

[100days-a-year]

That was fun ! You should see what happens on Techdiver when someone offers the same advice.But to anyone who offers up any proof that for cave-diving any agency is better than another....please give me the exact figures on caving deaths and what percentage each agency had .Trick question ........most cave fatalities were non -cave certified to begin with or were diving outside of the guidelines of the agencies they were certified by.I do believe GUE offers the most comprehensive training available,but do I want to spend the time and effort?No.I'd rather get the card and dive,dive,dive.Once in the system you can find out a lot about a person by doing some "weenie" dives with them then deciding if they are capable of further penetration.I like the idea of mentoring new divers along a longer time than than just thru the classes.I hang out around the crotchety old farts who pioneered this sport hoping to emulate the best of thier ideas while incorporating any new & valid advances.I spent probly 3 grand on tri-mix classes to find out that A.Helium is your friend B.Nitrogen is the enemy C.Oxygen can be either and D.There is more to learned by actually diving than in class.Like I stated earlier most of the guys that pioneered and lived share thier tips for free.The basic skills can be had rather inexpensively and with the extra $ the most valuable tool can be bought ...Experience.And comparing any kind of diving to medicine is funny...most instructors will tell you it'd be easier to train monkeys to dive.They don't try to outsmart the instructor and they don't vary from thier training.THanx for not flambe'ing me .......

 

[Lost Yooper]

Hey Tony,

I understand what you're saying about the trimix course. It doesn't take much to learn trimix (or nitrox for that matter) -- it's mostly theory. The swimming around doesn't change much. Basically, you're looking at learning a few more rules. What GUE (not sure about others) does is teaches you the theory, but also places a lot of weight on diving skill mastery. If an instructor doesn't care about skill mastery and only the theory part (which I've seen a lot), then paying for a trimix course doesn't really make sense -- if you're dedicated to learning it yourself. The cert. would be nice for vacations and such though, I guess. I think when you start getting into cave diving (skills oriented diving), then training is a must, IMO. I think with GUE you have to want to increase your skill level, not just the theory.

Take care.

Mike

 

[Uncle Pug]

Tony's a.b.c.d. can be had in a ten minute lecture with plenty of time for questions.... (and I'm agreeing with him about this)

What you get in a GUE tech class (don't know about cave) is a chance to wrestle with Darwin & Murphy in a controlled environment. Doesn't matter how good you are (or think you are) Darwin & Murphy are better.

 

[Lost Yooper]

Indeed they are!

 

[100days-a-year]

U.P..I agree with you that training is necessary for most types of technical diving .My premise remains that the practice of those skills in real world settings is the most desirable method to me.I don't have any knowledge of a lot of people dieing because they didn't do 100 dives wirh an instructor.The surviving members of this community all have the same views on safety(mostly)I further believe that 20 days of class and $2200 min. is more than is really necessary to teach these skills.NACD/NSS/CDS students outnumber GUE by quite a bit,most dive DIR(it's almost trendy now)and aren't dropping like flies.I know a lot of people who don't go the GUE route because of personalities,but that's not my beef.The WKPP and GUE fellas have always treated me with kindness and respect,both in person and on the net where a lot of folks say things they wouldn't have the uh..er SAC to say face to face.Warren has a great thread on why all cavers have reason to be so anal about adherance to the basics.BTW did you here the one about the WKRP(Woodville Karst Reject Project)

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by 100days-a-year
U.P..I agree with you that training is necessary for most types of technical diving .My premise remains that the practice of those skills in real world settings is the most desirable method to me.

No beef here at all with what you're saying Tony...

I agree... and what you said if I can put words into your mouth is that you like the free version of training, i.e. mentoring by experienced divers.

My problem was with the notion of a Lost Yooper Method that some on this board might interpret as the *read about it on the net and go out and try it for yourself method*.

Again this is not to take anything away from Yoop and he knows what I mean.... but whether you pay an instructor or are fortunate to have an experienced mentor (preferrable in my opinion) you need more that "read the book and try the dive" to be doing technical stuff. Yooper has been getting personal coaching directly from some of the best albeit over the ether. If he ever gets the chance for some schoolin' with Darwin&Murphy I am sure he would rather it be in the form of an instructor!

And I know you, Yoop and I are really on ageement here.

 

[Lost Yooper]

Yeah, if good, formal instruction is a viable option for you then, by all means, do it. My run-ins in with 'ole Murphy have been few and far between, but I've gotten through them quite well (which I thank DIR for). There's been many times that he was sittin' within arms reach of me too (deep air dives). Get the instruction if you can and learn as much as you can, as thoroughly as you can.

Take care.

Mike

 

[100days-a-year]

NEVER DIVE BEYOND YOUR TRAINING!!!I never said don't get training .I just prefer the easier way out.And U.P. I am duly chastised for not putting some disclaimers on it.You are 100% correct that somewhere ,some idiot will mis-construe anything said here .Murphy and Darwin are in a constant battle to claim this type.This weekend in the springs I saw violations of tons of lo-vis/overhead rules.That was by the instructors....the students were mostly shivering sitting on the bottom.I forget that some of them may lurk here waiting for a rationalization to go where they ain't 'sposed to be.NEVER DIVE BEYOND YOUR TRAINING!!!

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by 100days-a-year
NEVER DIVE BEYOND YOUR TRAINING!!!

If I ever get to Florida that is my first stop... get some cave training...
Even though we lay line and use frog kicks I wouldn't go into a hole with out some formal instruction first...
And even then finding a mentor is preferred to taking a class and then going in on our own...
I'll look you up..

 

[wrecNcaver]

I guess I have been very fortunate in that all of my instuctors have also become mentors. After getting my Tech training, I was able to continue to dive with my instructor and some of his seasoned former students. Same happened when I took my cave training. As I said before, the instructor IMHO makes a big difference.