New to doubles

[Just_Me]

Once I got mine trimmed out right I wondered why anyone would ever dive a single. I prefer doubles.

With that said. Get training and help. Intro tech is a good idea. Depending on your diving background, you will need to have help on your hose routing and set up.

Buy a collapsible dolly. Your welcome.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[rhuntley]

Learn and practice shutdown drills.

Look into to hogarthian hose routing. This is the de facto standard for doubles. Work on trim.

Think about an intro to tech class sooner rather than later so you can be presented with these skills and then practice them correctly while you are waiting to take a real tech class later.

The local GUE instructor has no courses going on this winter (apparently busy), so I'll be doing PADI Tec Basics (Basically dives 1 and 2 of of Tec 40) with my LDS' tech instructor in January. After that, I'm still hoping to jump on the next upcoming fundies course. Do you have any articles/videos that would best explain the procedures for shutdown drills? I've done them for sidemount but obviously, there is now a isolator and all my failures are behind my head.

make sure you have Jet Fins or something else that is negatively buoyant, will help. Adjust the manifold as low as you can go and still comfortably reach each valve and the crossbar, and you'll be fine. Valve shutdowns and S-drills aren't rocket science, but you should read up on them. There are some books and websites about gear configuration that help. First stages with fifth ports and rotating turrets help immensely for hose routing, but aren't needed if you don't have them. I go back and forth regularly between them and it doesn't bother me.

Equipment Configuration | Global Underwater Explorers

That will help some and shows you the basic two ways to route hoses, one with the non turret first stages flat, and the other with the turrets at angles. Depends on what you have for first stages, either is fine. I prefer flat which is shown with the Apeks DS4 first stages, the other one is a MK25 setup but can easily be done on any turret first stage, the MK25/S600 piston turret is just the GUE preferred first stage.

I prefer to route my drysuit down on the right post and have the only hose crossing my neck be my secondary. The inflator crossing stems from the rolloff potential of the left post, but I would rather lose my inflator than lose my drysuit, and with the inflator rolled off you are likely to notice far sooner than if you have it on your left post and the only duty your left post has is secondary and SPG. You're diving dry more than likely up there, so I'll assume you'll always have your drysuit, but even still, if you're wet, you're guaranteed to have to use the inflator on the left post, so I'd just rather know it rolled off, so that's the method to my madness. Obviously not the norm, and not DIR, but I don't really care, and do what works and makes sense for me.

I've got Hollis F1's, I believe they are .5 a pound negative each, should do the job. At this point, until I can buy Apeks XTX50s/DSTs I'll be re-configuring some Hollis 212/DC1s that I had set up for sidemount. Both have swivels. Good point on the hose routing, thanks!

Checkout the DIR videos on YouTube, watch them and practice the drills. Your rig looks good, can't see but add some 1/2 inch pieces to the webbing to hold your inflator, back up light, excess webbing etc.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hard to tell from the picture but I have six 1/2 inch pieces to hold down excess threading, backup light and whatever else. I've got some bungee on the left chest d-ring to hold down the inflator. I'll start watching some youtube videos now.

Once I got mine trimmed out right I wondered why anyone would ever dive a single. I prefer doubles.

With that said. Get training and help. Intro tech is a good idea. Depending on your diving background, you will need to have help on your hose routing and set up.

Buy a collapsible dolly. Your welcome.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

"Your Welcome" Jeesh, don't even give me time to say thank you eh? I'll be getting a hand from a friend/tech diver for the hose routing. Dolly is on the shopping list. Thank you

 

[Ben_ca]

Come down to Monterey and take the class... the water is warmer

 

[tbone1004]

F1's are fine, same with the Hollis regs, no need to switch unless you have a burning desire to dive Apeks regs, the XTX seconds are sexy as hell though.

Decidedly not DIR, but with 9" hoses aimed down on my sidemount rig, I can actually use the same regulators for doubles without changing anything but the length of the left regulator hose..... The 9" is actually enough to reach over the shoulder straps where I can see them. Works for me since most of my doubles diving is done with ID's, so my sidemount tanks slip into the ID cam bands and good to go, don't recommend it for someone new to doubles though, the crossbar is nice....

Valve shutdown drill according to GUE

1. Purge backup to verify operation
2. Shutdown right post, breathe down long hose, switch to backup *I don't like breathing more than one breath after shutdown because the posts tend to swivel when they aren't pressurized, I also dive Poseidons which don't like to be flooded*
3. clip longhose regulator off to right D-ring
4. Re-open right post and purge right reg to verify, and switch back
5. close and reopen the crossbar
6. If you have a light switch it over to the right hand, then shut down the right post *I think they say to purge here, but again, I don't like to, I will switch for a breath, feel the hose go somewhat slack, then go back to primary
7. reopen left post, and purge secondary to verify and put light back on the left

I'm sure I missed something for the official GUE method, but that's the important parts. Instead of purging, I much prefer to actually breathe off of the regulator, again, I have Jetstreams so the purges are very violent, and I just prefer to breathe off of them to practice muscle memory, doesn't take any more effort, but if you take fundies they will likely want it purged.

I'm sure there's videos out there somewhere, but you can actually practice the shutdown drills inside if the tanks are long enough for you to reach them when you are sitting.

 

[RJP]

Yesterday I invested in a set of doubles, Faber LP85s to be exact. The plan is to master them on recreational profiles before moving on to tech. I'm hoping to get them in the pool the next weekend. Looks like I'll be joining a course with a tech instructor in Jan, but I want to work out all the kinks before then. Any tips?

​

How will you "work out the kinks" before being trained? How will you know what the kinks are? How will you know whether your way of "working them out" is proper?

If you plan on joining a tech class with an instructor you know and like... see if he'll get in the pool with you for a little show and tell. Since the photo above was taken in a dive shop, I'm assuming he sold you that rig? I can't imagine selling a student a new doubles rig and then letting them get in the water with them for the first time WITHOUT me.

 

[Colliam7]

The plan is to master them on recreational profiles before moving on to tech. I'll be joining a course with a tech instructor in Jan, but I want to work out all the kinks before then. Any tips?

Before I started tech training, I assembled a set of doubles and dove them, quite a bit, in my drysuit. I did get the folks at the shop, including the instructor I later started working with, to give me some help on configuring the regs before I got them wet the first time. For me, I saw no reason to wait until starting a formal course to begin gaining experience. Afterward, I told my instructor it was the best decision I could have made - I could not imagine going into technical dive training and using doubles for the first time at the beginning. I dove them in the pool, I dove them in the quarry, then took them off the NC coast on a wreck charter. By the time I started tech, I was at least comfortable with the rig. That didn't mean I had achieved 'mastery', by any means. For me, mastering buoyancy and trim in the drysuit and doubles, and valve drills were the most difficult parts of technical training. In hindsight, I probably should have spent more time on valve drills. But, the degree of frustration I might have felt with regard to buoyancy and trim was mitigated to a considerable extent by getting in the water with the cylinders before the course started. There is simply a necessary element of 'time in grade' or, more accurately, 'time in rig' associated with using doubles. At least, that was the case for me.

You mention XTX50s and DST first stages. As merely a personal observation: I love ATX/XTX50s. And, I love the DST first stages for sidemount. For backmount rigs, I find that turret regs (like the DST, and the Zeagle 50D) don't give me the best hose routing. I have used Apeks FST and FSR first stages with backmount doubles, and they work better, for me, than the DSTs. I actually prefer the Tec 3 setup for backmount. Just a thought.

 

[Adobo]

Do you have any articles/videos that would best explain the procedures for shutdown drills? I've done them for sidemount but obviously, there is now a isolator and all my failures are behind my head.

There are two different topics here, valve drills and failures.

First, what is the purpose of learning how to do a valve drill prior to taking Fundies or Intro to Tech?

Second, if you are diving these tanks in recreational dives only, if you have a failure during a dive, wouldn't you do what you normally do if you were in a single tank which is to thumb the dive?

 

[rhuntley]

Come down to Monterey and take the class... the water is warmer

Pay for my flight and I will.

F1's are fine, same with the Hollis regs, no need to switch unless you have a burning desire to dive Apeks regs, the XTX seconds are sexy as hell though.

Decidedly not DIR, but with 9" hoses aimed down on my sidemount rig, I can actually use the same regulators for doubles without changing anything but the length of the left regulator hose..... The 9" is actually enough to reach over the shoulder straps where I can see them. Works for me since most of my doubles diving is done with ID's, so my sidemount tanks slip into the ID cam bands and good to go, don't recommend it for someone new to doubles though, the crossbar is nice....

Valve shutdown drill according to GUE

1. Purge backup to verify operation
2. Shutdown right post, breathe down long hose, switch to backup *I don't like breathing more than one breath after shutdown because the posts tend to swivel when they aren't pressurized, I also dive Poseidons which don't like to be flooded*
3. clip longhose regulator off to right D-ring
4. Re-open right post and purge right reg to verify, and switch back
5. close and reopen the crossbar
6. If you have a light switch it over to the right hand, then shut down the right post *I think they say to purge here, but again, I don't like to, I will switch for a breath, feel the hose go somewhat slack, then go back to primary
7. reopen left post, and purge secondary to verify and put light back on the left

I'm sure I missed something for the official GUE method, but that's the important parts. Instead of purging, I much prefer to actually breathe off of the regulator, again, I have Jetstreams so the purges are very violent, and I just prefer to breathe off of them to practice muscle memory, doesn't take any more effort, but if you take fundies they will likely want it purged.

I'm sure there's videos out there somewhere, but you can actually practice the shutdown drills inside if the tanks are long enough for you to reach them when you are sitting.

Ah, so it is not that much different than sidemount afterall, just the added step up close/reopen the crossbar. Thanks, i'll be giving this a try on land, and then in the pool!

How will you "work out the kinks" before being trained? How will you know what the kinks are? How will you know whether your way of "working them out" is proper?

If you plan on joining a tech class with an instructor you know and like... see if he'll get in the pool with you for a little show and tell. Since the photo above was taken in a dive shop, I'm assuming he sold you that rig? I can't imagine selling a student a new doubles rig and then letting them get in the water with them for the first time WITHOUT me.

My answer is the exact thing Colliam7 stated below. I see no harm in jumping in a pool to work on trim and buoyancy, there is no way that I would start a tech/intro to tech course without having done that at least. I'll be having my dive buddy joining me, and filming me so that I can look at my trim topside. If the instructor had some time (regardless of the cost), I'd love to have them there, but he doesn't. In regards to him selling it to me, he wrote up the quote, but I sold it to myself and had it assembled with the help of a coworker.

Before I started tech training, I assembled a set of doubles and dove them, quite a bit, in my drysuit. I did get the folks at the shop, including the instructor I later started working with, to give me some help on configuring the regs before I got them wet the first time. For me, I saw no reason to wait until starting a formal course to begin gaining experience. Afterward, I told my instructor it was the best decision I could have made - I could not imagine going into technical dive training and using doubles for the first time at the beginning. I dove them in the pool, I dove them in the quarry, then took them off the NC coast on a wreck charter. By the time I started tech, I was at least comfortable with the rig. That didn't mean I had achieved 'mastery', by any means. For me, mastering buoyancy and trim in the drysuit and doubles, and valve drills were the most difficult parts of technical training. In hindsight, I probably should have spent more time on valve drills. But, the degree of frustration I might have felt with regard to buoyancy and trim was mitigated to a considerable extent by getting in the water with the cylinders before the course started. There is simply a necessary element of 'time in grade' or, more accurately, 'time in rig' associated with using doubles. At least, that was the case for me.

You mention XTX50s and DST first stages. As merely a personal observation: I love ATX/XTX50s. And, I love the DST first stages for sidemount. For backmount rigs, I find that turret regs (like the DST, and the Zeagle 50D) don't give me the best hose routing. I have used Apeks FST and FSR first stages with backmount doubles, and they work better, for me, than the DSTs. I actually prefer the Tec 3 setup for backmount. Just a thought.

Exactly what I am planning on doing. I was considering Tec 3's, but occasionally I'll likely still be doing sidemount, so I'll be needing the turrets.

There are two different topics here, valve drills and failures.

First, what is the purpose of learning how to do a valve drill prior to taking Fundies or Intro to Tech?

Second, if you are diving these tanks in recreational dives only, if you have a failure during a dive, wouldn't you do what you normally do if you were in a single tank which is to thumb the dive?

1. The purpose of learning a valve drill prior to taking Intro to Tech would mostly be getting my hands behind my head, and getting used to the placement of the valves. 2. If I were to handle the situation the same way someone with a single tank would (Every situation is different, but likely in the end sharing air and doing a controlled ascent), then there would be no benefit of me carrying a second tank on my back. The plan is to be as self reliant as possible.

 

[Adobo]

1. The purpose of learning a valve drill prior to taking Intro to Tech would mostly be getting my hands behind my head, and getting used to the placement of the valves.

Different agencies teach valve drills differently. In the case of GUE, valve drills require two divers - the person who is doing the valve drill and a buddy who helps to make sure that the diver doing the valve drill doesn't find himself with both posts shut off. So it might be better to learn this stuff from/with someone who will be helping you do the valve drills anyway - be it GUE or IANTD or PADI DSAT. You learning this in the internet and teaching it to one of your dive buddies is a little close to the blind leading the blind.

2. If I were to handle the situation the same way someone with a single tank would (Every situation is different, but likely in the end sharing air and doing a controlled ascent), then there would be no benefit of me carrying a second tank on my back. The plan is to be self reliant.

There are many benefits to diving doubles in recreational dives. However, by its very definition, a recreational dive means that if there is an emergency, the dive is over. You are not debugging failures and shutting down valves.

Now, it may be that you want to use these doubles to do dives with technical profiles or overheads. In that case, it is indeed important to know how to debug failures and preserve gas so that you can exit the dive safely. In that case, a class might be the most appropriate setting to learn how to debug failures as there are far more considerations to sorting out failures than just figuring out which post/reg is leaking.

One last note... when diving back mount doubles with an isolation manifold, the notion of self reliance seems somewhat odd. You cannot definitively debug an issue by yourself as the manifold, posts and regs are behind your head. If your plan is to dive these tanks as more or less a solo diver, then perhaps instruction/advice on diving solo is more what you are looking for. And maybe rethink whether back mount doubles is the most appropriate configuration. Just a thought.

 

[tbone1004]

he's taking Fundies as soon as the class is available, so he'll be learning properly, just trying to figure out the basics so he has some idea of what's going on.

Valve drills and s-drills will also become part of your normal pre-dive checks as you go forward, even if I'm diving with groups but not in the traditional buddy configuration, babysitting students etc, as soon as I get horizontal and situated, even if the dive has started, I'll reach back and close and reopen each of the valves to verify everything is doing what it is supposed to be doing, and the long hose comes out to make sure that it can be deployed if I'm wearing one, though I usually do a 40-44" hose under the right arm to an angle adapter. Just habit at this point when tanks are on my back.