Next NASA Chief Nominee Doesn’t Believe in Climate Change

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A newspaper's circulation statistics, or a cable news show viewership numbers, neither speak to the quality, veracity, or reputation of said entities. People tend to read, watch, and listen to media that tell them what they want to hear, and fits their particular political ideology, not necessarily what is true or factual. Few ever bother to follow multiple news sources or try to verify information being presented on their favorite media source. FWIW, if you have spent any time in England, you would likely form the same opinion as Storker about the Daily Mail. Or maybe not.
 
A newspaper's circulation statistics, or a cable news show viewership numbers, neither speak to the quality, veracity, or reputation of said entities. People tend to read, watch, and listen to media that tell them what they want to hear, and fits their particular political ideology, not necessarily what is true or factual. Few ever bother to follow multiple news sources or try to verify information being presented on their favorite media source. FWIW, if you have spent any time in England, you would likely form the same opinion as Storker about the Daily Mail. Or maybe not.

You are generally correct as I see it, but what you say begs the question, who is to judge, if not the masses?

And further, who is to select the judges, if not the masses?

If each individual is alotted equal powers of judgement, then the only reasonable analysis is a quantitative one.

I don't mean to get all Socratic here, so if the judgement is not the intention, or in many cases even reasonably possible, then what remains is only popularity.

So I guess you have to decide if all men are to be treated equal, or not.
 
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The Daily Mail is the 2nd most circulated newspaper in the UK, like it or not.

Similarly, Fox News in the U.S. is quite consistently either the 1st or 2nd most viewed cable news network there, again, like it or not.

Distortion, assumption, or slander through bias creates a quite a bit of misconception, and in the case of the last US election, surprise.

Squeaky wheels are often rusty, and smooth ones usually run quiet.

What exactly is the point you are making?

I presume it cannot possibly be that the popularity of a news channel or a newspaper is in any way indicative of the quality or the truth content of the news ... for all the same reasons (and many more some pointed out by others) as illustrated by this simplistic, remotely to diving related example of a DIY youtube video which has an incredible (for a diving device you have to build yourself) 7.3 million views.
You would not say that that view count in comparison to other diving video youtube view counts indicates much about the quality or usefulness or ... of the device - or?

So, other than that they are popular, what exactly are you saying in your post about those news outlets?
Just trying to follow your argument...
 
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What exactly is the point you are making?

I presume it cannot possibly be that the popularity of a news channel or a newspaper is in any way indicative of the quality or the truth content of the news ... for all the same reasons (and many more some pointed out by others) as illustrated by this simplistic, remotely to diving related example of a DIY youtube video which has an incredible (for a diving device you have to build yourself) 7.3 million views.
You would not say that that view count in comparison to other diving video youtube view counts indicates much about the quality or usefulness or ... of the device - or?

So, other than that they are popular, what exactly are you saying in your post about those news outlets?
Just trying to follow your argument...
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What exactly is the point you are making?

I presume it cannot possibly be that the popularity of a news channel or a newspaper is in any way indicative of the quality or the truth content of the news ... for all the same reasons (and many more some pointed out by others) as illustrated by this simplistic, remotely to diving related example of a DIY youtube video which has an incredible (for a diving device you have to build yourself) 7.3 million views.
You would not say that that view count in comparison to other diving video youtube view counts indicates much about the quality or usefulness or ... of the device - or?

So, other than that they are popular, what exactly are you saying in your post about those news outlets?
Just trying to follow your argument...

They are immensely popular; a lot of people like them. This should not be ignored, and judging massive swaths of humanity through personal judgements of value and quality is not very nice, and at the end of the day, futile. It's nothing new. People have been slandering sources to discredit arguments for a long time. As I believe was said just above somewhere, it is of course better to accumulate as much information from as many sources as possible to come to your own conclusions, but who has the time, so people largely put their trust where it fits or go on instinct. I guess I think it's just better to not get personal, and judge an argument, not where it comes from.
 
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You are generally correct as I see it, but what you say begs the question, who is to judge, if not the masses?

And further, who is to select the judges, if not the masses?

If each individual is alotted equal powers of judgement, then the only reasonable analysis is a quantitative one.

I don't mean to get all Socratic here, so if the judgement is not the intention, or in many cases even reasonably possible, then what remains is only popularity.

So I guess you have to decide if all men are to be treated equal, or not.


You must be joking. You obviously have a lot higher opinion of the "masses" judgment than I do. You don't have to go back too far in history to to see what can happen when the masses become manipulated, easily led and deceived by popular despots. Just think of the relationship of judgment and the masses to the rise of Hitler and Nazism, and in today's world the fanatical masses in North Korea. Of course, all people should be treated equally, but unfortunately sound judgment, intellect, and reasoning ability have never been, and will never be, equally distributed among the masses. You do not have to look past intellects like Einstein and Stephen Hawking to know that is a fact.
 
You must be joking. You obviously have a lot higher opinion of the "masses" judgment than I do.

Apparently, but it's no so much an opinion as the allotment of respect; who am I to tell a bunch of people that they are wrong and I am right? I prefer not to be so condescending, but rather understand differences of opinions and respect their popularity. Justin Bieber is incredibly popular. I don't like the music personally, but millions upon millions of teenage girls do. It's a quantitative reality, and trying to tell them that it sucks would be futile and counterproductive; like calling people 'deplorable'. We get what we deserve, individually, and in this discussion, collectively, whether you or I like it or not. That's the reality, and size matters.
 
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Apparently, but it's no so much an opinion as the allotment of respect; who am I to tell a bunch of people that they are wrong and I am right? I prefer not to be so condescending, but rather understand differences of opinions and respect their popularity, you know, like in a democracy; we get what we collectively deserve, whether we like it or not. That's the reality.
I guess I get the general direction of what you are saying. In my opinion you are not describing e.g. democracy and othet popularity contests too badly in that way. I am not saying BTW that democracy is a pure popularity contest, although sometimes I can't help but think that ours is just that, in an interest group sponsored way...
Anyway none of that has anything to do with science or fact finding or sound engineering or Medicine or....
It may have to do with the marketing and selling of "all that", but popularity of "tidbits" has almost nothing to do with wether they are proven facts or made up baloney or misguided errors...

You speak of slandering of sources. Yeah, slandering is wrong. But anything that emits anything is a source of something. That does not mean its a scientifically correct or meaningful source. So scrutinizing a source surely is a good thing, but slandering is wrong.
Now hypothetically, if newsmedia "B" is oversimplifying and misrepresenting science study "B" and thus drawing wrong conclusions and "lessons" from it (irrelevant if by intent and with purpose or due to ignorance) and scientist "C" calls them out on it, he is not slandering or? If anything newsmedia "B" was doing that - or? And in either case 80% of people never read newsreport "A", of those 80% to 99% never catch what scientist "C" had to say, and less than 1 in a million ever read that scientific study. But 90% of those that catch a soundbite on cable news will form an opinion based on that, how it was spun and how they are spun. I am likely one of them at times, although I try not to be.

But none of that has anything to do with the actual science ... or?
 
I find it interesting how many want to disregard any input from scientists working in the oil industry, but won't even consider a potential bias for environmentalists or academics who are highly invested in supporting global warming and "man made" climate change. Even in this thread, several references to "warming", when even the popular dialogue has changed the rhetoric to "climate change".

Re recent events, media tends to run with "experts" who blame recent hurricane activity on climate change, but seem to suppress some notable perpspectives that show overall hurricane activity is actually down over the last 15yrs and their is not really any science to link Irma to climate change.

Interesting perspective on bias....
Ideological Conflicts Of Interest Are Worse Than Financial Ones
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By Alex Berezow — May 31, 2017
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Credit: Shutterstock
"Follow the money!" activists shout. The money trail, according to this logic, always leads to lies and deception.

This puerile fallacy, argumentum ad aurum, is just a thinly disguised ad hominemattack commonly used against scientists. Instead of criticizing the quality or conclusions of the research, activists instead assault the integrity of the scientist.

For certain, money can be a corrupting influence. That's why journals require scientists to disclose financial ties to industry. But money isn't the only source of corruption. Indeed, anything that causes a person to reject evidence-based science should be considered a conflict of interest. By that definition, ideology and politics would qualify as conflicts of interest, as well. And that would make some people very uncomfortable.

Ideology as a Conflict of Interest

In 2015, the New England Journal of Medicine ran an article by Lisa Rosenbaum on bias as a conflict of interest. Many academics and even doctors are ideologically opposed to industry, no matter what. As the author writes, this stigma results in a "stifling of honest discourse and potential discouragement of productive collaborations." She then poses a damning question:

When we study whether people with financial ties are more likely to vote in favor of a product, shouldn't we also ask whether those without such ties are more likely to vote against it?

In other words, if scientists with ties to industry are assumed to be corrupted by money, shouldn't we assume that anti-industry zealots are corrupted by their ideology?

Last year, obesity researcher Arya Sharma made a similar argument. Dr. Sharma recalls the story of Ancel Keys, a researcher who believed that heart disease was linked to consuming saturated fats. Dr. Keys's team completed a large, randomized controlled trial in 1973 to test the hypothesis but hid the results, which weren't published until 2016. Why? Because the data contradicted his hypothesis. Consequently, we have had more than 40 years of bad dietary advice because, as Dr. Sharma says, "making these findings public would have done severe damage to their 'pet hypothesis.'"

Dr. Sharma ends his article with a stinging critique:

When someone has "no financial conflicts to declare" I often ask my self, "what are the authors really hiding?"

Environmentalists' Conflict of Interest

Modern environmentalism is a religion. Its most devoted followers swear by the benefits of organic food, oppose GMOs and nuclear power (and often vaccines, too), and believe that the Earth is overpopulated by a destructive force called humanity. They offer tithes to an alphabet soup of organizations ideologically opposed to technological progress: EWG, UCS, CSPI, NRDC, and PETA*.

Never mind that science has definitively shown that organic food is no healthier, safer, or tastier than conventional food. Never mind that GMOs have not been shown to harm humans, animals, or the environment. Never mind that nuclear power plants have been re-engineered to be meltdown-proof. And never mind that demographers believe the planet is not overpopulated. Hard data simply do not matter to environmentalists and activists.

An easy way to determine if a person has an indefatigable ideological conflict of interest is to ask, "What evidence would make you change your mind?" If he can't answer that question, then there is little point in continuing the dialogue.
 
Global warming or cooling?


There is a 'in-depth' discussion going on in The Pub.. While it is an opt in room.. it has a wide variety of personalities that have been discussing climate change for a while.

Fresh perspectives are always welcome. Please come on over and share in the chats.

Warning... not for the faint of heart.
 

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