OMG, my SI was less than 60 minutes!

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John, I agree that the PADI research made a great step forward with the RDP for recreational diving however, catagorizing the Navy diving procedures as arbitrary is way off the mark. The decisions that were made were a combination of Haldane's research and the actual effects of the dives on the divers that made them. The US Navy has been at the forefront of diving research since they formed the NEDU in 1912. Their procedures are made to keep their divers safe while performing the tasks that are necessary for the Navy.

One shouldn't label the best practices for one type of diving as arbitrary, when compared with the best practices of another.
By "arbitrary," I mean that when they made the 120 minute compartment the determiner of surface intervals, they created it for that purpose and did not formal testing to see if it was indeed the proper compartment. Up until then Haldane's original compartments had been used. Perhaps the word "arbitrary" was too strong, but it was not the result of formal testing for that purpose.
 
Realizing that this is the Basic Scuba forum, I thought I would explain some of the basic ideas here that are being bandied about as if every reader was already an expert.

When a diver exits the water and begins a surface interval, the diver's tissues contain more dissolved nitrogen than is in the air they are breathing. When they breathe, nitrogen in the air enters their tissues, but nitrogen in the tissues leaves into the air. Since there is more nitrogen in the tissues than in the air, the net result is a loss of tissue nitrogen--off-gassing. (More nitrogen is leaving the body than is entering it.) The greater the difference (gradient) between the tissues and the air, the faster the offgassing occurs. As the gradient becomes less and less, the rate of off-gassing slows down.

Different tissues also absorb and release nitrogen at different rates, depending upon the physical nature and their blood flow. Very fast tissues will lose their nitrogen quickly, and very slow tissues will take much longer. To estimate this off-gassing, the body is said to have a variety of faster and slower theoretical tissues, called "compartments." Each theoretical compartment is identified by the rate at which loses gas (and slows down that loss over time). Those rates are called "half-times." The fastest compartment is called the 5 minute compartment. That means that when the diver surfaces, the gradient between that compartment and the air will be cut in half in 5 minutes. The rate at which it slows down is also calculated by half-times. In the next 5 minutes, it will lose half of what is left. In the next 5 minutes, it will lose half of what is left. In a total of 6 half-times, it will be effectively equal to the air.

It is important to lose enough nitrogen before the next dive to be able to start that dive at a reasonably safe level. To do that, algorithms have to identify the compartment to use to guide the length of the surface interval. The fastest ones are discounted because they lose their excess gas quickly, and the slowest ones are discounted because they take on gas so slowly that they do not have enough to worry about. The Navy decided that the 120 minute compartment would guide surface intervals, and PADI decided that the 60 minute compartment would guide surface intervals for recreational divers. That is the reason for the difference between those tables. When recreational divers push the envelope of their dives, the 60 minute compartment becomes less suitable, and a longer surface interval is appropriate.
 
I dove with a Sunnto for many years.

Penalize or account for. Call it whatever you want but you will see it act abruptly if you dive enough. Take it on a liveaboard doing multiple dives a day for several days. You will see NDL times jump with minor changes in depth. For example going from 1 minute NDL to 25 after rising a few feet.

If you go deco or close to NDL for more than 1 dive, it will "account for" that abruptly.
 
There has not been such a rule for PADI since I have been a professional. Perhaps there was one before that. In the current manual, the requirements for training dives are extensive, and they can be found on pages 26-28 in the instructor manual.

I trust you are correct. I haven't looked at PADI stuff since I stopped being an instructor for them several years ago. Maybe it was NAUI that had that rule... They say memory is the second thing to go!

The reasons for the 1 hour rule and the 3 hour rule, which are for repetitive dives (at least 3) that include reaching the very highest pressure groups, are well known.

The research leading to the PADI RDP was extensive, and it was published.

I'm not saying it is a secret, and I have no issues with PADI tables. My point was tables just aren't taught to the extent they used to be. My openwater class was at a university, so it was 16 weeks long. We spent probably half of those classes on tables and dive planning. I believe tables are now optional to teach. I was very surprised that when I became a TDI AN/DP instructor that tables are not required at the basic technical level. I still teach them so the students have some basic knowledge of where the numbers come from on thier little black boxes of magic that is their phone, but it isn't required.

-Chris
 
I think that this really is scratching at a deeper conversation that needs to happen in the scuba community, basic decompression theory needs to be taught to divers sooner than their first tec class. Surface Intervals and No Deco Limits and Safety Stops aren't someagic number created by Poseidon himself, they are very conservative analog safety measures.

If I plan a dive with less conservative gradient factors how does it effect my time before deco obligation? If I'm doing a 3 minute safety stop anyway is up to three minutes of deco obligation acceptable for a recreational diver? How does my surface interval length effect my nitrogen loading for the next dive, and how much residual nitrogen am I comfortable with when starting another dive?

These are topics I think should be broached in a course that dares to call itself "advanced diver." Too many divers are not able to make informed choices about their next dive because they aren't taught how their choices effect their future profile.
 
By "arbitrary," I mean that when they made the 120 minute compartment the determiner of surface intervals, they created it for that purpose and did not formal testing to see if it was indeed the proper compartment. Up until then Haldane's original compartments had been used. Perhaps the word "arbitrary" was too strong, but it was not the result of formal testing for that purpose.

My point is they have, and continue to do, formal testing on actual divers and every dive they have made since 1912. The reason there are logs for diving is a tradition from the Navy logging dives to use as data for the ongoing research to revise procedures and the Navy dive tables. At first the research was not published because the people were not research scientists, as time went on papers were published after the fact, or not at all, due to security concerns.

We have discussed the difference between formal training and training may not exist depending on the quality of training, not whether it is "formal". I believe this is similar, as the research results in the Navy Dive Tables have kept Navy, and early recreational, divers safe for decades, until others stand on their shoulders providing new solutions for modern recreational divers.


Cheers

Bob
 
One of the things I like most about my Shearwater is the graph showing the inert gas loading of all 16 compartments, especially on multidive, multiday trips. It really does give a good picture of what the model thinks is going on.
 
I was on a liveaboard one time and two of the divers found something cool right at the end of their dive. they came up, and didn't even take off their BCDs, they just had the crew hook up the refill whip and fill the tank while they sat there. On that afternoon, their surface interval was only as long as it took to refill their tank.
 
One hour is a nice, easy to remember number.
My mom used to make my brother and me wait 1/2 hour before we could go back into the water after lunch. I don't know what table she got that number off of.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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